Commons talk:Wiki Loves Monuments 2019/Participating countries

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Brazil[edit]

@Chicocvenancio and Rodrigo Padula: I'm glad to see there's interest again to organize Wiki Loves Monuments in Brazil. I understand that you don't see an opportunity to collaborate on this with each other. This places us as the international team in a dilemma. I would like to be transparent about this. We're concerned that the scenario that played out in previous years keeps repeating (a challenge to keep to deadlines, presumably due to low availability of volunteers). Therefore, I'd like to invite both of you to write a short paragraph (no need to turn it into essays) about what the 'package' is like. That should answer at least the following questions: "Are you currently organized in an officially recognized affiliate" (I assume the answer is no for both), "Who's will be the WLM organizers exactly", "what is your collective experience in organizing Wiki Loves competitions", "Can you elaborate on the status of the lists and your approach to them" and "What is your approach towards partners". We want to make a fair decision to work with the team that is most inclusive of volunteers and has the best opportunity to get the competition off the ground. Two competitions is, by the way, not an option. We aim to make a decision somewhere in the next 1-2 weeks, to give sufficient time to actually do the organizing. Stating the obvious: please be respectful towards each other - this is supposed to be a civil environment. Effeietsanders (talk) 03:03, 22 January 2019 (UTC) PS: if you do see an opportunity to work together, that would be far preferable, of course.[reply]

@Effeietsanders: We crafted our response over at User:Chicocvenancio/WLM 2019 proposal. Hope it answers these questions adequately. Chico Venancio (talk) 21:18, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Rodrigo Padula: I would like to wrap this up early this weekend, could you let me know if you have any input on this? Effeietsanders (talk) 17:02, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @Effeietsanders: as you know I was responsible to organize all editions of WLM and WLE contests in Brasil. It's strange to see that @Chicocvenancio: decided now to organize the WLM 2019 since he and his friends never helped us to promote or organize any edition on pt.wiki or at least shared or promoted theses contests here in Brasil in any way. They always talked to WMF to not suport us, and they tried to block us from receiving grants and etc. Sincerely I do not know why Chico is wanting to coordinate this project being locked for an indefinite time by unanimous decision of the community for editing in the Wikipedia domain based on his destabilizing behavior in lusophone Wikipedia. This project has always been developed in an open way, so that any pt.wiki collaborator could join our team, several editors have helped us over the last years improving the lists of monuments and heritage listed, using the images received, categorizing and filtering the results. So, I would like to keep this project under our umbrella. As you know we don't any any recognized user group here in Brasil but we are moving forward with all projects though Wiki Education Brazil as an independent organization.

As we have been organizing this project for years, we already have a network of confirmed onwiki and offwiki partners and contributors, including judges, professional photographers, and senior courses and photography professionals who work on pre-filtering and evaluating photos. Including nationally and internationally prized photographers, as well as winning photographers from previous editions of WLE / WLM and POTY.

WLM Brazil 2019 has been under development since last year with several partnerships already negotiated and confirmed, so for our team, we are already organizing the 2019 edition, for me this was already clear even for the international team. Any change would imply in the cancellation of partnerships and loss of work and negotiations already carried out, for me this is just another attempt by the former members of the user group Wikimedia in Brazil to take this project from us, if not enough the derecognition of both user groups , continue to seek unnecessary conflicts with international teams rather than cooperation inside and outside the Wikipedia lusophone.

There are so many other opportunities to help in Brasil and Internationally, why they want to do exactly what we are doing for so long?

IMHO, the correct behavior would be the new interested ones to look for us to help and not simply try to contact the international team to somehow try to restart this project that we have developed for so long when nobody were interested to promote it.

Another important information, I have been working with team of the Creative Commons Chapter in Brazil since last year and one of our goals is to promote WLE and WLM this year with the support of CC Brasil and it's partners. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 17:21, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Effeietsanders: You can see above why we don’t believe it’s possible to work together. Even though you asked everyone to remain civil, Padula can’t avoid attacking Chico and reminding that he is locally filtered as part as a long conflict with so many details about its fairness we just can address here without changing the main topic. The reason we want to do the contest is only because we believe we can do better, which shouldn’t be a surprise concerning that the level of success of previous contests is below average and that’s no surprise for anyone. The fact that it’s being done by the same person with poor results is more like a negative assertion than a positive. Since the beginning, we just said we would like to do it and are not forcing anyone to forfeit the contest, but I don’t understand why insisting on same ineffective modus operandi. We are just stating that we can make it better. That shouldn’t be a reason for attacking other users. Unless we are doing something wrong for showing interest on the contest.—Teles «Talk to me ˱C L @ S˲» 18:32, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of proposing improvements and helping, you always act this way, criticizing the work of others, trying to co-opt projects, people. You've been in the community for years and never cared about WLE, WLM, until I start organizing it, that sounds funny, but you always act the same way, you attack people by saying they are attacking you. The best result of your team so far was to get both groups left without recognition and grants. Great result, you are very clever... I always had to spend a lot of my time with discussions like that and that's why great part of our community dont like to keep involved in projects like this one. I'm not attacking anyone. I ask you, this is the contest page in the wiki page https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Wiki_Loves_Monuments/Brasil, how a person proposes to coordinate a project being blocked for editing in the Wikipedia domain? To say that Chico is blocked on Wikipedia is to attack him? I'm just saying that he proposes to coordinate something that can not even edit the pages. I have nothing against him, the community blocked him, not me. We are open for suggestions and contributions as we always were since the first edition, including, many people helped us to improve the pages, the lists, helped us with pictures filtering and spreading the contest on facebook and twitter. I saw it on Chicos proposal "Sturm - Wiki Loves Monuments Brazil 2012" and I never heard anything about WLM2012 in Brasil. You Teles, as an admin of pt.wiki facebook and twitter accounts never shared or liked any of our posts and contests, why? Now you will be the social networks guy? Instead of helping, some of your fellows reported WLE and WLM posts as spam on facebook for no reason and we received that reports from them. But, I agree, that is not the place to start to cry and move forward with unfruitful discussions. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 20:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Effeietsanders: and the rest of the WLM international team, I will not respond to the allegations made above. If any doubts still remain about our proposal or anything else that might impact our ability to successfully organize the contest, please ping me here or reach out to me privately. Chico Venancio (talk) 12:50, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick note: thanks for the information. We're reviewing it. Because I'm a little too busy right now with too many things, it may take longer than I'd like. Effeietsanders (talk) 18:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Effeietsanders, Romaine, LilyOfTheWest A relevant update: as of May 24 we are a recognized affiliate. We believe this furthers demonstrates our ability to organize this contest in an adequate manner. We again remind the international WLM team that we wish to organize several events focused on improving the monument list before the start of the contest itself. The more time we have to plan and organized these events the better. Chico Venancio (talk) 22:27, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion[edit]

@Chicocvenancio and Rodrigo Padula: First of all, my apologies for taking so long on this issue. I have been busy in private life, and I quietly hoped that you would be able to resolve this together in the mean time. This does clearly not seem to be the way, and both sides have asked the international team to make a decision soon.

Thank you for providing the context needed to make that decision. I know that both teams have a lot of dedication to our common cause of free knowledge, and have the best in mind for a successful WLM. I really wish that it were possible that all people with a heart for heritage could work together on this endeavor. I hope that no matter the outcome, the other team will support the selected team to make the competition a success (by connecting them with partners and/or not obstructing them).

Before we asked you these questions, we set up a number of criteria in case two teams wanted to organize the competition in the same country. In this decision, we need to arrive at the best possible outcome for the competition, and therefore I will take the most recent information that has been provided, as input.

In our checklist of criteria, the question whether one of the teams was a recognized affiliate was at the top. We consider recognition by the Affiliations Committee (especially in the complex history of Wikimedia in Brazil) as a great benefit. Close second to that is the ability to work as a team (going beyond one or two individuals carrying the bulk of the workload). At a third place, we would consider the historical organizing of the competition.

In this case, the Grupo de Usuários Wiki Movimento Brasil is the only recognized affiliate in Brazil (as a User Group), and only their proposal made clear reference to a team that had significant size. As an international team, we have therefore to decide to recognize them as the official organizers of Wiki Loves Monuments in Brazil.

All in all, there are many positive intentions that the Wiki Movimento Brasil has for the competition, and I look forward to their continued work to develop these. As an international team, we will support their efforts to the best of our ability. I want to thank Rodrigo Padula and his team again for their work in the past years in organizing Wiki Loves Monuments and other activities in Brazil. I sincerely hope that this transition will be a positive one, and that we can keep the fire for WLM burning.

On behalf of the international team, Effeietsanders (talk) 08:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely participating?[edit]

@Chicocvenancio, DarwIn, سامي الرحيلي, Giantflightlessbirds, Jon Harald Søby (WMNO), and Fadesga: I would like to invite you to consider moving your country to the 'definitely participating' table, and update the information accordingly. Thanks! Effeietsanders (talk) 22:09, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Effeietsanders: Done, thanks for the reminder! -- Darwin Ahoy! 22:18, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Effeietsanders: Done. :-) Jon Harald Søby (WMNO) (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

yes i am interested by this marvellous concept Kelymanjaro (talk) 00:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kelymanjaro: What country are you from? Effeietsanders (talk) 17:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ireland upload start[edit]

Hi all! As always, Ireland's upload starts a little early on 25 August to coincide with the Irish National Heritage Week. Usually we would have heard from the international organising team about this to confirm. Who should I check in with about this? Thanks Smirkybec (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Important announcements[edit]

Just pinging the coordinators of countries to make sure they get the announcement and are on the wlm-announce mailing list (only doing this once):

@Rinazh, Bachounda, Beko, Ecritures, Bidgee, Regiomontanus, Interfase, NahidSultan, Fawaz.tairou, and Chicocvenancio:

@Benoit Rochon, Fraxinus, Twdk, Susannaanas, Aboubacarkhoraa, Bodhisattwa, Smirkybec, Marta Arosio (WMIT), Rinazh, Ammarah Khalid, and NevBorg:

@Abdeaitali, Olaniyan Oluhola, Jon Harald Søby (WMNO), Txolo, Filipinayzd, DarwIn, Alchimista, CEllen, Atsirlin, and Jetam2:

@Akdar, Yerpo, Millars, Rodelar, Axel Pettersson (WMSE), Ilario, Civvì, CristianNX, Yiyi, and Reke:

@Kateregga1, MichaelMaggs, Kevin Payravi, Theklan, and Aitzolete:

Thanks for reading! Effeietsanders (talk) 09:52, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probably participating[edit]

@Bachounda, CEllen, and Kevin Payravi: (I don't have a username for Aruba) Please note that I moved your national competition from definitely participating to probably participating. This is because I couldn't find a fully functional landing page. If there is one, please add it as instructed to the overview (see my email on the announcement list recently with the todo's) and ping me. Good luck with the last bits. If you're looking for a good design, I can warmly recommend the template by Martin Kraft that he recently shared on the announcement list. Thanks! Effeietsanders (talk) 19:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Effeietsanders: Thanks for the ping - US will be done soon, working on new logo + experimenting with migrating our old landing page with the new template. Thanks, ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Effeietsanders: Landing page for US created + updated the table. Thanks, ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 19:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
:@Effeietsanders: Thanks lots - I've created landing page for algerian contest - and the notice banner with special design thinking all's done in the preparations before to start our 7th contest in Algeria bests --Bachounda (talk) 09:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Strainu: See the message above (I noticed that you boldly reverted my move and complained in the summary). As far as I can see, the landing page for Romania is still showing outdated information (wrong dates etc) and there's no way for me to see if all information about locations, prizes etc is actually up to date. Am I overlooking something? Please note that it's not that I'm trying to be a pain, but I do feel a responsibility to manage expectations towards potential participants. Effeietsanders (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed after the revert that you require a direct link to the rules - so far we were sending people to the main page. I have changed the landing page for central notice and will make sure we replace 2018 with 2019 everywhere. If you feel the need to be over-controlling (which is my view of your requirements) feel free to revert - the only truly important thing is that we get the central notice in September. Strainu (talk) 11:59, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The landing page has been fixed, I hope it suits the rules at this point. Strainu (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! Is there a specific set of Code of Conduct + Friendly Space Policy for WLM? These documents might be useful to provide a framework for civility among organizers. Particularly, let me say Strainu my view is that your assumption about Effeietsanders in the section above is unfair and inadequate. On the one hand, let's assume good faith (and not anything else!) --and if one disagrees with an edit or a decision just voice disagreement respectfully. On the other hand, let me say I am thankful for all the work the international coordinating team and local organizers have done so far. This is the first time I get involved with WLM, and I am very impressed by the good work and the participatory culture. Thanks. --Joalpe (talk) 12:19, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Joao. I'm not making any assumption here, I'm just stating my opinion on the approach taken by the organizers, which each year turn wlm more and more in a centralized contest. The conflict I had with Romaine in 2016 when I tried to use the wlm-ro campaign while not officially participating in the contest is telling of the controlling mentality shown by the organizers. I'm sorry if that comes along as aggressive, but it is one of the reasons why I gave up on coordinating WLMRO this year.
As to AGF, I'm not claiming any bad intention from the organizers. I'm just saying that we're not kids. Once an org has secured finances and manpower to organize and declares themselves as definitely participating, assuming good faith is allowing them all the available time (e.g. until 8/31) to prepare before moving them out of the participating countries list. Strainu (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Strainu: Thank you for your reply. To organize events, contests in our volunteer capacity can be burdensome. So, I hear you... And in this context, conflict might arise --but we should always, as Wikimedians, look for strategies to improve our community health. I strongly believe we need a CC+FSP package for WLM if it doesn't exist yet, as these documents are important to guide for compromise and de-escalation. Anyway, you're a long-timer, so what I am saying is not new to you, and I am sorry previous experiences were frustrating. Let's move forward and make a great WLM this year. Have a good one! --Joalpe (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Strainu: I realize that our communication styles are very different, and I'm sorry if I somehow confused you. I don't believe I intentionally emphasized the rules page (linking to more detailed rules from the landing page should be fine) - there is probably a misunderstanding. What I am concerned about is that the landing page looks very outdated in general in Romania. That's all. The landing page seems to otherwise contain the necessary elements.
I have for several years moved countries around on the participating list based on their landing page status. It wouldn't be the first time that an experienced country misses the starting date and then broadcasts the outdated page to the world. I'll happily restore the country status in time once the landing page is updated. We don't have the capacity to wait with all checks until the last minute, nor would that be responsible (because it leaves no time to correct it). I'll make another pass tomorrow, and will reconsider the status then again. @Joalpe: thanks for your positive attitude! Effeietsanders (talk) 22:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Effeietsanders, now you really confused me. What do you mean by outdated? We intentionally don't update the announcement on the main page of the blog, but we do update the contest and participation page. I don't know if you've seen this message - we've updated the rules page for this year's contest and updated the landing page link in your table to send to the rules pages directly. Could you please clarify what other changes do you think are necessary? Thank you. Strainu (talk) 06:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Strainu: There are a few things that particularly make the page look outdated. They may be easy to fix: 1) the right bar only has months up to 2018, no post from 2019. That gives a feeling that nothing happens this year. 2) the 'posted on' date is quite prominent and says 2013. Even though you edited it. Maybe hide or update this date? 3) There's a big 2018 logo in the footer (ECHY). If you ensure me that everything is up to date and that it only looked out of date, that's fine with me. The thing is that I have to work with limited signals :). That is also why I pinged CEllen, so that I can be corrected if I'm misinterpreting. Effeietsanders (talk) 20:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since the beginning of WLM, WLM is a half centralised and half localised photo contest. The basic set of ideas behind the contest did not change over time, it is still the same. Also the set of rules that come along with WLM have not changed much, they do have been made more clear. When WLM is used in a way that breaches the basic ideas and rules, yes, then we are obliged to do something. WLM is an open structure, but minimal requirements need to be met. The statement that we "each year turn wlm more and more in a centralized contest" is false, in comparison to 2011 it 2019 is less centralised. Romaine (talk) 07:10, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Effeietsanders, thanks for the feedback. It's good to have an outside view and I'll try to address it even if that is no longer the landing page. I assure you that all the information is up to date and ready for the participants.

Romaine, I do not wish to engage in further conversations with you. I apologize for mentioning your name earlier in the conversation; I will make sure it doesn't happen again and I ask that you do the same.

Hopefully by next year my help will no longer be needed and I will be able to do more rewarding things in the fall. --Strainu (talk) 07:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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