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COMMONS DISCUSSION PAGES Commons Help desk Village pump (general discussion) Copyright Proposals Technical Graphics and photography discussion Photography critiques Image improvement Illustration workshop Map workshop Photography workshop Video and sound workshop Categories for discussion Undeletion requests Deletion requests Volunteer Response Team/Noticeboard Translators' noticeboard Work requests for bots Contact administrators Vandalism User problems (Dispute resolution) Blocks and protections Bureaucrats' noticeboard CheckUser requests Oversight requests Telegram IRC webchat Commons mailing list (archive) Commons' bugs on Phabricator Welcome to the Village pump This page is used for discussions of the operations, technical issues, and policies of Wikimedia Commons. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days and sections tagged with {{Section resolved|1=--~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives; the latest archive is Commons:Village pump/Archive/2024/08. Please note: If you want to ask why unfree/non-commercial material is not allowed at Wikimedia Commons or if you want to suggest that allowing it would be a good thing, please do not comment here. It is probably pointless. One of Wikimedia Commons’ core principles is: "Only free content is allowed." This is a basic rule of the place, as inherent as the NPOV requirement on all Wikipedias. Have you read our FAQ? For changing the name of a file, see Commons:File renaming. Any answers you receive here are not legal advice and the responder cannot be held liable for them. If you have legal questions, we can try to help but our answers cannot replace those of a qualified professional (i.e. a lawyer). Your question will be answered here; please check back regularly. Please do not leave your email address or other contact information, as this page is widely visible across the internet and you are liable to receive spam. Purposes which do not meet the scope of this page: Please do not make deletion requests here: use the relevant process for it instead. For technical support and graphics talks (PNG, SVG, GIF, etc.), please post on the Graphics village pump. To ask for image improvement, see: Graphic Lab/Photography workshop for photographs. Graphic Lab/Map workshop for maps. Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop for other illustrations. To ask for video or audio improvement, see Commons:Graphic Lab/Video and sound workshop. For translation requests, please post at Commons:Requests for translation. For media requests, please post at Commons:File requests. Search archives:     Start a new discussion

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The last town pump to be in use in Saint Helier, Jersey, until early 20th century [add]

Centralized discussion See also: Village pump/Proposals   ■ Archive Commons:Requests for comment/Hosting of free fonts in Commons (18 July 2024) How do we organize categories by date (14 May 2024) Should PD-CQ Roll Call be used for recent images? (5 January 2024) Technical needs survey (17 December 2023) When does PDART apply to textile works? (15 November 2023) Does this image contain "love hearts"? (17 August 2023) Overhaul of categories by period (5 December 2022) Version of Saudi flag to use (11 July 2022) Concern regarding revocability of KOGL licenses (22 December 2021) Should deleting content from your own talk page be forbidden? (11 November 2021) Revise the COM:FOP Sweden section (1 February 2021) Change technical name of LRs to license-reviewer from image-reviewer(2 November 2023) Template: View   ■ Discuss    ■ Edit   ■ Watch

	SpBot archives all sections tagged with {{Section resolved|1=~~~~}} after 1 day and sections whose most recent comment is older than 7 days.

July 26

>600 TB of recent media files

The amount of data on Commons (most recent file versions) surpassed 600 Terabytes (ca. 546 TiB) recently. --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Special:MediaStatistics for verification --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Are there any reliable offline backups of the data, by the way? I think I have read somewhere that Commons data is stored on two servers or something like that, but do we have a backup that could be used if some large-scale corruption of data happened? It wouldn't take much, really: For 600 TB, about 20 LTO Ultrium 8 tapes with a capacity of 30 TB each would suffice. And such tapes could be safely stored in different places. Gestumblindi (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Gestumblindi We're a distribution service, so recovery and restores can be crowdsourced for less than the cost of your tapes Elizium23 (talk) 03:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

lmao, sure. Good luck with that project. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd be extremely surprised if the WMF didn't have backups of all their websites. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

1. It’s more than 600tib, because this doesn’t count old and deleted versions. The same system also contains all the OTHER wikis files, so we can add that as well

2. Wikimedia Commons and wmf didn't have media backups between 2005 and 2022 (and up to 2012 there wasnt even a second server), but they finally exist.

3. As far as I know, there isn’t a public copy right now, because the deleted images would have to be filtered out. But im not 100% sure, i cant find details about it atm. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:32, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

It's to bad there's no way to easily create backups of specific folders on here because it would be cool if there were backups of the more important ones on somewhere like archive.org or a similar website. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

You probably read about it here I think which has more info and proposes (an) additional backup(s): Commons:Requests for comment/Technical needs survey/Media dumps.

I think it would be great if people could come to WMF with some large hard drives and get a subsection copied on them such as all files that are in use in any Wikimedia project or all files except for >1 GB video files and a large .tiff files folder.

And I don't think the amount of data by file-size is a good measure of success, e.g. there are a lot of 4K videos of the same unnotable boring event that don't get watched at at all taking up lots of storage space or many duplicate large files and so on. Instead, there probably should be greater focus on the large gaps there are, such as various specific illustrations for concepts where illustrations would be very useful. I kind of doubt there were no backups until 2022 or would consider a second server a backup. More offline backups would be good and a good way for that would be to better enable third parties to copy over things, which is also useful for many other applications. Prototyperspective (talk) 10:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Backups are very crucial, and I was surprised that there were not any until 2022, also because only backupping files should not be so expensive, as they only need to be stored on several disks. --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe there is a chance to establish some sort of decentral service (like Mastodon), where every instance gets maybe 10-20 TB, so files are stored in many different areas of the world, so complete data loss in one point of the world becomes more unprobable --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 10:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe there could or should be some central place – like Commons:Backup or Help:Backup and/or Commons:Media dumps or a Commons WikiProject – where things like those in this thread can be discussed over longer term, people can organize or collaborate and ask questions, and there is some WMC-specific info on backups similar to wikitech:Media storage/Backups. Maybe you and @MGeog2022: could set it up and aggregate+organize all the info on this subject in one place. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:32, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I can understand why they wouldn't want to provide a full backup of everything on their servers to the public but there really should be publicly available backups of the files that we can already access because they clearly aren't copyrighted. If nothing else just for our own purposes. There's lots of situations where I could see something like that being useful outside of just having it available if the servers ever go down. Plus like why not? Everything is already there, organized, just needs to be mass downloaded, put in zip file, and reuploaded to archive.org. Does anyone if there's an easy way to download everything in specific folders? I'm tempted to do it myself but I have no clue how to. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

600 TB or 1 PB are peanuts to the Internet Archive, as they store over 200 PB of data :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 13:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

One does not simply just download and then upload 600 TB over the internet. At these sizes you would probably transfer via physical hard disks being handed over to someone in person. Bawolff (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Obviously. That's why I said there shoulfd be a way download specific folders. Most of the stuff on here probably comes from Flickr anyway. So there's no reason to back it up. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Prototyperspective, sorry I wasn't around here last days. Yes, it would be fine to have a page with such information in Commons itself, I can create it at some moment over the next days. I agree with @Adamant1in both things: there's no reason (besides the needed technical work) not to allow mass downloading of freely licensed media files, and not all media in Commons has the same level of quality an importance, but it can be very difficult to identify all the important ones. Dumps don't need to be only one 600 TB file (in fact, much smaller Wikipedia dumps are composed of lots of files).

@Gestumblindi, yes, there are now full Commons backups in 2 datacenters. Backups were never better than they are now, and the vast majority of files were never lost over many years, but things can and should be improved even more (more copies, more places, publicly downloadable dumps). MGeog2022 (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prototyperspective, @PantheraLeo1359531, I created the page Commons:Dumps and backups. MGeog2022 (talk) 13:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome! Now we have all that information in Commons, without the need to collect it from here and there at Wikitech and Phabricator. MGeog2022 (talk) 15:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the best way, if we're talking about a backup as a precaution against catastrophic data loss, is still a backup on media physically separated from any live system such as the large-capacity LTO Ultrium tapes I mentioned, which can be safely stored in different locations. Only if you have your data on tapes (or maybe large harddisks) in a vault, you can rest assured that the media / data will survive even some catastrophic large-scale event that affects whole swathes of the internet and possibly people's online / "cloud" backups as well. Gestumblindi (talk) 16:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify - the files were stored on several (geographically separated) disks prior to the 2022 point. Its not like they were on a single computer where a single disk failing would have caused the files to be lost. Generally for backup you want more than just mirroring across multiple disks - ideally you want it disconnected from the system and stored off site, so for example if the system was hacked the hacker couldn't just issue a command to delete all the files or some sort of natural disaster can't just take out the whole data center. I'm not exactly sure what the wmf backup strategy is, but my understanding is that is the part that only came into place in 2022. Bawolff (talk) 08:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@PantheraLeo1359531, when I learned that there were no backups before 2021 or 2022, I was very surprised too. Fortunately, I became aware of it (and I started contributing to Commons) when there were already backups in place, so the scare was not so bad :-). But it's scary to think in what danger were all images and videos we saw in Wikipedia and other wikis. Before 2021-2022, there were (as there are now) multiple (more than just 2) copies of each media file in both main datacenters (each one stored in RAID disks), but that couldn't be called as true backups. MGeog2022 (talk) 17:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Of course, a backup is absolutely needed! But now it's there :). I always have local backups of my files I contribute here, but many maybe don't, and when we take into account that some images may be out of reach to collect again, it could be a huge loss. But now we can be more relaxed :D --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

+1, better safe than sorry :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 19:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Self-talken photo

I took this photo years ago, and then noticed a wikimedia user claimed it as their own. How can I remedy this issue? I've gone on both the photo's talk page and the users talk page and have gotten no response.

Lansing Center

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Criticalthinker (talk • contribs) 10:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Criticalthinker: Hi, You uploaded your photo under the name File:10 Lansing Center.JPG to the English-language Wikipedia on 2 April 2006. The other user merely transferred it to Commons in 2011. You can correct and complete the information in the description page. An administrator on en.wikipedia should check what license you gave the file on Wikipedia. -- Asclepias (talk) 11:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Licensing was {{PD-self}}, uploaded by User:Criticalthinker. I believe this is now fixed, but feel free to edit further if I didn't have it right. - Jmabel ! talk 18:33, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, wow. Thanks! Criticalthinker (talk) 07:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Criticalthinker: Just a side note, as you released the file into the public domain through "PD-self", you have relinquished your right to be named as the creator of the file. It's still a good idea to do so, so people see who has released the file and that everything is in order license-wise, but basically, anyone can now do with this file what they want without mentioning you. If you want to prevent this, you should use an attribution license like CC-BY or CC-BY-SA. That being said, it would probably still be inappropriate for any other person to claim that they're the author, but as others pointed out, that's not what happened here. Gestumblindi (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so this wasn't "fixed." What do I do? I've been on Wiki for awhile, but I have no idea of the process you've spoken of. What do I need to do, specifically? Criticalthinker (talk) 00:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

You start uploading your photographs under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 license. Thats what you do now Trade (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

For this specific image and any images that you may have uploaded as "PD-self" in the past, you can't "fix" it - it means you have irreversibly released them into the public domain and people don't need to mention you as the creator. As said above, if you want to be credited, just use CC-BY or CC-BY-SA for future uploads. Gestumblindi (talk) 08:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

As was said, it was uploaded in 2006. I'd not even remembered that I'd uploaded it until I came across it, again, years and years later, let alone the licensing. I don't even remember what the old wiki would have looked like, then, and I don't imagine many of you do, either. The rudeness was completely unnecessary in the replies. But if that's how you're going to deal with it, thanks for absolutely nothing. Criticalthinker (talk) 06:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be rude, I thought I was just stating the facts for your information; if that came across as rude, I apologize. Gestumblindi (talk) 17:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

"it would probably still be inappropriate for any other person to claim that they're the author" Would it be against policy tho? Trade (talk) 03:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I should hope so. While there may be no requirement to credit the creator, knowingly adding false information in any way to any WM project is vandalism. Unfortunately, marking uploads as one's own creation to upload hassle-free is pretty rampant--I was shocked at the number of people who think this is okay so long as they are not trying to actually claim rights or profit from the image. Josh (talk) 01:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• You can convert the image to a png and then reupload the image, and ask that the jpg be deleted. --RAN (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not a helpful comment. What exactly would the uploader achieve with that? The file format wouldn't change the PD-self license. Also, I don't see the advantage from a technical point of view of converting a JPEG photo to PNG. Gestumblindi (talk) 18:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Any png image will look fuzzy when scaled down (due to design decisions discussed in phab:T192744), so you may want svg or jpg versions instead.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

July 30

Are 4K videos discouraged now?

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T368433

Before when I uploaded 4K videos they would be encoded and offered as a playback option. Now it only encodes up to HD and there is no option to play 4K except to play source. Example ref: File:Koayu river - summer day - 2024 July 28.webm I'm just curious if I am missing an option or doing something wrong or if something was changed in the backend? Nesnad (talk) 11:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Correct. They take an enormous amount of processing power and we were getting more and more uploads. This then (multiple times) caused the transcode servers to overload to the point where all servers were tied up transcoding humongous files almost no one was watching, and never getting around to the audio files and smaller variants of the videos that are actually used. For this reason higher resolution transcodes were put on hold. This is documented in phab:T368364 and phab:T368433.

The transcode pipelines are currently being rewritten so that they can run on Wikimedia's Kubernetes platform. Once that is done, it might be easier to tweak the capacity and priority of transcoding, but that is going to take a while. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

It is sensible to suspend transcoding of high resolution versions, when ressources are limited. It is also sensible to annoucnce that on site. A significant number of users ignore Phabricator completely for example because it is monolingual and many people simply do not speak or read english. C.Suthorn (@Life_is@no-pony.farm - p7.ee/p) (talk) 15:28, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Not prioritizing audio files and lower resolution videos before 4K is an absolutely bonkers design decision i gotta say Trade (talk) 03:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

As a very general rule: 4K video is usually overkill unless you're using a very good camera and some form of stabilization (e.g. a tripod or Steadicam, or optical image stabilization in the camera). This video looks like it was taken with a handheld camera, and it is not a good use case for 4K video; most of it is heavily affected by motion blur, so the 4K resolution is largely wasted. Omphalographer (talk) 00:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Got to agree. 4K is super pointless with something like this. A lot of people can't even stream video at 4K to begin with anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:59, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Are we talking about the Western world Trade (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I usually shoot in 4K when doing documentations, but only with fullframe camera that can profit from the high resolution, but there are several cases where 4K brings not more details than Full HD --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 11:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I must point out that the issue was not stabilization of handheld, it was the framerate. At least from what I can see from my computer. To your point, 4K is indeed useless if, and only if, it doesn't go with an above-than-avarage fps and bit rate. This is based on my experiments on YouTube -- should probably do more of such experiments here to back my claim. Miguel Angel Omaña Rojas (talk) 05:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia asserts that only two movies have been released on 4K Blu-Ray at 48 FPS or higher, and only a few films were shot at that speed. Most feature films are 24 FPS. 4K does need high bit rates, but FPS is irrelevant.

YouTube is not a good tool for this; there's a complex proprietary system trying to send a stream that is playable on the receiving system and maximizes quality without taking up too much expensive bandwidth. It will not replicate what will happen on Commons.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Good to know. I remember when people said HD was a waste because most people couldn't play it. 4K is future proofing. But I understand it was taking a lot to transcode the video. Are there plans to go back and transcode 4K video once pipelines are rewritten? Any case, thank you for the explanation guys! :) Nesnad (talk) 05:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Using a higher video resolution is only "future-proofing" when there is high-resolution detail to preserve in the source video. That isn't the case here; the source video is blurred, and saving those blurry frames at a high resolution doesn't make them any less blurry. Omphalographer (talk) 05:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The source video is available without limitations. Only transcoded versions with same resolution but possibly lower bitrate are not available. GPSLeo (talk) 06:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly what I was talking about. It is all about the FPS numbers going along with 4K. It’s not that I’m against 4K, but when it comes to a lot of people (obviously not you) they shoot 4K in small FPS. That is what 4K is making 4K useless today. I don’t know in the future, but that whole 4K + High FPS numbers makes the files bigger, and that’s a biggie as well. Miguel Angel Omaña Rojas (talk) 22:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Does framerate really matter? It's a video not a PC game Trade (talk) 04:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Framerate matters for video, 30 fps can look different from 60 fps and sometimes details are not properly shown at 30. Abzeronow (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes for details as @Abzeronowexplained, and also for camera movement. In a nutshell, it makes the moving imahes more real-life. Miguel Angel Omaña Rojas (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I can bring up concerns about 4K videos at the Commons Video Meetup at Wikimania. I plan on attending the meetup in person so I'll try to remember to mention the challenges of 4K and the desire for support where appropriate. Abzeronow (talk) 00:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Could you propose a way to request exceptions to the 4K "ban" for individual videos? Those in cases where the improved resolution heavily benefits. Or at the very least find a way to allow for a limited number of 4K uploads of high quality Trade (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

But no cases, where the improved resolution heavily benefits, have been presented?!? Just kill it. Alexpl (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

August 03

Should we convert all TIFFs to JPEGs?

Following this discussion - Commons:Bots/Work requests#Convert Category:Photographs by Carol M. Highsmith to JPEG (bot request), I'm trying to assess what sort of consensus we have regarding the conversion of TIFFs to JPEGs in general. Also, see past discussion in the archive. -- DaxServer (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Reasons to prefer JPEG over TIFF for our purposes:

• Easier to view, download & use for people with slower internet connection
• JPEG is generally much easier to use for average people without specialized programs/knowledge about file types
• Often significantly smaller file size while preserving the image quality (often over 1000% smaller (sometimes over 10000% (TIF|JPG))
• TIF has issues with displaying correctly as thumbnail
• raw .tif files cannot be displayed in browsers (URL ending .tif (TIF example, JPG example) - this means properly zooming is not possible without downloading a large file to your PC (or even better your phone)
• TIF is not indexed by Google and presumably other image search engines (as the format is unsuitable for web purposes, see above)

Proposed solution is to convert the TIF file to JPG and upload as such, copy all information, and make both files cross reference each other. This has been done already with ~250,000 NARA/LOC files (see e.g. here)

TheImaCow (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

All these problems are solved by the jpeg thumbnails they are available. GPSLeo (talk) 18:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

TIFF is the world's most featureful image format, so not all TIFFs are good candidates for conversion to JPEG. Multipage TIFFs might be converted to PDF, and non-photographic TIFFs would be better off as PNGs.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes: Any png image will look fuzzy when scaled down (due to design decisions discussed in phab:T192744), so you may want to upload svg or jpg versions, too.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

We don't need to align 100%. Anything that goes "we do this here, so we should do it everywhere" is flawed. We shouldn't waste resources on this. Targeted approaches might make sense sometimes, but most of this material isn't even in use, nor will it ever be. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 17:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose. Let sleeping dogs lie. (BTW, I have some old LoC code that will read TIFF but not JPEG.) Glrx (talk) 18:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose convert master images (ie. the file what Wikimedia Commons uses as source when scaling jpg) from lossless format to lossy ones. It just means lower image quality. If user needs smaller files user can already download the jpeg versions of the files from Wikimedia Commons instead of original file. --Zache (talk) 19:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Nothing prevents you from converting a tif into a jpg and uploading it alongside the original tif. Ruslik (talk) 19:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  Time does.

  It is finite, and either it is spend

  - downloading the TIF

  - converting the TIF to something else

  - uploading the tif

  - copy & adjust file info

  - adjust file info of the tif

  -- repeat x1000

  or

  -doing anyting else that cannot be easily automated. TheImaCow (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  It's already available for each tif, so no need to duplicate it. Enhancing999 (talk) 05:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Support Yes, for most Wikimedia projects, JPEG is better. Yann (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: I have been thru this issue here in the case of an archived TIFF and subsequent JPEG with suitable cross‑linking. So please consider this use case given an original high‑quality TIFF scan and a downstream usable JPEG image. And please add some nuance to the algorithm that goes thru converting everything "in general" and explicitly identify and exclude this corner case. TIA RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 22:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
• Of course, converting of all images from lossless to lossy format is unacceptable. This can be discussed only for some particular cases. In the general case TIFFs can be converted to PNGs, they will become smaller (but not as small as JPGs). Sneeuwschaap (talk) 23:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Sneeuwschaap: Any png image will look fuzzy when scaled down (due to design decisions discussed in phab:T192744), so please use 100% quality jpg images to preserve quality and allow easy display on WMF projects.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose I can see the benefit of this, but then it would also create needless duplicates that just screw with search results and take extra curation. I'd probably support it if there was a way to hide or suppress TIFF images though, but it's hard enough dealing with multiple images formats as it is. Some TIFF files probably aren't worth converting to JPEG in the first place either. One thing I'd like to see fixed is how TIFF images display in thumb nails though. I think that would solve a large part of the problem with them. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Comment How many edits were already done on the 250,000 existing duplicates? How much time was wasted in duplicated curation somebody uploaded two formats of the same photo? Enhancing999 (talk) 05:12, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Oppose I think tiff files are higher-quality aren't they? So if they are converted then to something that is lossless and I don't know if there is such a filetype. More useful would be converting gifs that are not animated to another filetype. Prototyperspective (talk) 10:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Oppose as ambiguous: What whould be done with the TIFFs? If kept, support. If deleted, oppose.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
  • The proposal incudes "make both files cross reference each other.", so clearly the intention is to keep them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:03, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
    • @Pigsonthewing: No, it doesn't. DaxServer, COM:VPP is the more appropriate venue.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 11:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
      • My mistake; apologies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

      I wanted to post it here as a general discussion, but it took a different turn. -- DaxServer (talk) 12:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

if a bot has the ability to automatically convert tiff to jpeg (upload as new file), i think obviously the sensible option is

make a template that users can use to tag files for automatic conversion. something similar to rotation requests.

because as users have explained, most tiff files are not actively in use. there's no urgency to convert them. maybe when they do become needed in future, web technology has developed to being able to display tiff properly.

so for now, if any tiff is to be used somewhere, and the user thinks it's beneficial to have a jpeg version instead, only then convert that specific tiff. otherwise most files dont need a duplicate jpeg. RZuo (talk) 12:42, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

 Oppose, original-quality and file type of the TIFF files must be maintained, especially if these were directly imported from GLAMs that various Wikimedians partnered with. If there is a need for JPEG, then upload under a new file name. We can't be sure if forced conversion of TIFFs to JPEGs may lead to discouragement of some GLAMs to continue partnering with Wikimedian volunteers. And by the way, TIFF is a lossless file type, whereas JPEG is a lossy file type. I've read somewhere above that this proposal may be of benefit for Wikipedia articles (this is solved by uploading a JPEG version under a new file name), but as per some of our voices at Commons talk:Media knowledge beyond Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons does not only aim to be a central media repository for all Wikimedia projects like enwiki; it aims to be a reliable partner of external institutions like GLAMs and non-profit orgs for their freely-licensed media content to be hosted and reused globally. To be a reliable partner, IMO, we should not alter the original, raw TIFF files that the GLAMs donate to us; instead, it is best to convert to JPEG and upload as a new file. I can recall a template for LoC files that states raw files directly donated by LoC should not be altered in any way so that those represent the exact-quality files from LoC, and any modification/s must be uploaded as a/as new file/s. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@JWilz12345: You seem to be opposing some proposal other than the one being made. To quote from the original post, "Proposed solution is to convert the TIF file to JPG and upload as such, copy all information, and make both files cross reference each other." Your objection seems to presume that the TIFF would be delete, but nothing of the sort is being proposed. - Jmabel ! talk 03:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: ah, then that's better. I have striked my comment and vote. As long as the original raw TIFF files that GLAMs and other NGOs donated to us are kept intact and not deleted (whether JPEG versions as separate files are mandated), then any proposal is fine for me. The raw TIFF files should be kept in perpetuity as we are supposed to be reliable partners of various GLAMs that Wikimedians partnered for many years. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

As long the original files are not being deleted, I am not against it but. But the question is if it is necessary in every case, and some already have JPEG copies :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 07:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The next question is that we currently have automatic conversion from tiff to jpg for every tiffs. What benefit would manual duplication do? (cost for manual duplication is that there would be huge number of duplicate files which metadata would be needed to updated, keep in sync etc. It also multiplies the edits done to the files which user are seeing etc. --Zache (talk) 07:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose automated. Likely to cause confusion, because how would we link the JPEG version? We could end up either massively overemphasising the JPEG. For instance, File:Negro drinking at "Colored" water cooler in streetcar terminal, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma by Russell Lee - Original.tiff links a restored version as a JPEG, but lacks an exact copy as JPEG. I suspect bots would be tempted to use a gallery, as in File:"... American Army Engineer task force in Liberia find themselves in a land from which their ancestors came. Wash day an - NARA - 531144.tif - but that gives a lot more emphasis to a copy with literal film edges over the featured picture. Gallery links are kind of terrible, as they often resolve to something like TIFF: 5040x3300 JPEG 5040x3300 JPEG 5025x3295 PNG 5025x3295 - that doesn't give anything like a useful navigation.

The only way I'd support it is if it was a de-emphasised templated link. Nothing as prominent as {{Extracted image}}, more on the lines of:

An unmodified JPEG version of this TIFF is available at File:Foo.jpg.

It really needs to be minimally disruptive. Adam Cuerden (talk) 07:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Another comment: I spend a lot of time, as a human in the loop, adding sensible metadata to image files. Any bot'ed activity can only do this badly and vary probably contribute to at least some misleading information. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 11:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Oppose TIFF is the better, lossless format, and usually, the automated JPEG thumbnail generation from TIFF works. You can download any TIFF file in various sizes as JPEG from Commons. There are some issues with the thumbnail generator, but these mean that the thumbnail generator should be fixed. I don't see a need to flood Commons with JPEG duplicates of TIFF files. Gestumblindi (talk) 12:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Oppose, including per Gestumblindi. -- Ooligan (talk) 19:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protection on the Village Pump?

I see that the Village Pump is now semi-protected, which strikes me as quite inappropriate. Yes, vandalism is a pain, but this is the Village Pump, where users, including new users and IPs, should be able to come to start or participate in a discussion.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes: I think you are right about this. @A.Savin: Please reconsider. Per this log entry 13:45, 22 June 2024 (UTC), you changed protection to "Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users" for six months. If vandalism here is such a problem, then we just need more Admins to patrol it.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 11:33, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I recall that I had the bad idea to revert vandalism here myself .. rather than wait for an admin to do so and apply semi-protection. Agree that it could have been done for a shorter period, but most newbie questions are better on Help Desk. Maybe we should just add a notice for that. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Enhancing999: Some header tweaking may do the job.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:54, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't even call it "vandalism" here. This is not an article, but a talk page: there is nothing to vandalize. Inappropriate comments that are out of place should be removed, but they are written in his/her own name by the person who writes them: there is no visible wrong information. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Diff. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Certainly, sorry: I wrote too quickly. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps new or unregistered users could be restricted to adding comments and editing their own comments, if that's possible. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to add page protection so only logged-in users can edit, even if the account is new? This seems like the most reasonable course of action to me as well. ReneeWrites (talk) 20:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the new normal, instead of doing their job they'll just ban everybody from editing, like they did with overwriting files. Yilku1 (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

August 04

Acceptability of file names containing emoji

For instance File:Spring has arrived^^^^^ 🌼🌼🌼🌼🌼🌼 - Flickr - rossomoto.jpg. I was thinking about renaming to something without them but I don't want to waste my time on it if they aren't an issue. It seems like a super weird way to name files though. So Yes, no, or does it depend on the circumstances when it comes to file names with emoji? --Adamant1 (talk) 02:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

If you know specifically what the plant in the photo is, a rename to a more specific name would be in order (under criterion 2 - "meaningless or ambiguous name"). But renaming just to remove the emoji is harder to justify, especially when the filename is still meaningless without them. Omphalographer (talk) 04:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Omphalographer: Hhmmm. The Emoji seem to show up as different flowers depending on the platform. So I'm not even sure how I'd figure that out to begin with. Maybe they could just be replaced with "flowers" though since it doesn't seem to be a specific plant. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean the budding flowers seen in the photo, not the ones represented by emoji in the filename. As you've astutely observed, the exact appearance of emoji is font-dependent. Omphalographer (talk) 05:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The emoji is the same on every platform, but the rendering can change depending on which device/browser/etc. you view it with. ReneeWrites (talk) 07:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Adamant1: I don't think emoji are themselves objectionable in file names. Indeed in this case they're the only part of the filename that actually describes what's in the picture. They might be difficult to type, but I think we accept that people might have to copy and paste filenames that are in unfamiliar scripts. So unless there's actually some problem that they're causing, I think they can stay. --bjh21 (talk) 11:55, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Commons:File naming advises "Avoid abusing Unicode...symbols such as "♥" are often more natural when spelled out ("heart"), also increasing visibility in search. Furthermore some characters do not render correctly at all in certain operating systems and browsers. It is a good idea to stick to letters, numbers, underscore (space), ASCII hyphen/minus/dash, plus, and period (dot), as these do not have any MediaWiki restrictions." DMacks (talk) 15:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to see emojis completely banned from file names -- in the most obvious case, they'd be appropriate in a file showing how a particular font renders that emoji -- but this seems like an inappropriate file name. - Jmabel ! talk 19:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

How is "Commons:File naming" relevant here? Enhancing999 (talk) 01:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Enhancing999 because it's about naming files? I don't understand the thrust of your question. - Jmabel ! talk 03:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The question was if the filename is acceptable. Enhancing999 (talk) 03:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the issue of emojis is at all addressed there; perhaps it should be. - Jmabel ! talk 04:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe need a new guideline that answers basic questions, such as Special:Permalink/830407356. Enhancing999 (talk) 04:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Though certainly that was too tight: discouraged use of any non-Latin alphabet. - Jmabel ! talk 21:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Further dissemination of Wikimedia Commons Atlas of the World needed

I have the feeling that Wikimedia Commons Atlas of the World is barely known among Wikipedia or even Commons regular visitors. Its quality can certainly be improved, but the first step to achieve that is that it is known enough. If it was an independent project (Wikiatlas), no doubt it would be much more known and used (and improved). There's no need to create a new independent project, but I think it should be given more own character, and find a way to make Wikimedia and Commons users who are looking for maps, aware of its existence. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:17, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it would work better as a separate project. I'm not really convinced of the usefulness of gallery namespace in general. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it would need a lot of WMF involvement and devote resources to it. I'm not too optimistic about it. I am convinced that there can be other ways to give it visibility.

I'm not really convinced of the usefulness of gallery namespace in general: I don't agree with that, unless gallery namespace is split in several ones, for different types of galleries. Surely there are lots of galleries that do not add anything, but others, for example, galleries about cities, allow you to see things you could not see in Wikipedia or other wikis, including the hypothetical future atlas. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I wonder how many galleries of locations consist of less than 10 pictures all taken more than 10 years ago. This despite there being dozens of other images available. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Many galleries about sufficiently important cities are not bad (photos being some years old does not have to be a problem):

• London
• Bilbao
• Rennes
• Seattle

Of course, there are also examples of not so good city galleries (perhaps the perception depends on the size and country of the cities in which one places the focus):

• Newark, New Jersey

MGeog2022 (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Rennes seems to be mostly more than 10 years old. 2008?

Old isn't a problem as such, but it just makes it likely that the gallery isn't representative any more.

Obviously, you could consider any image as relevant if you just want a visual list of subtopics. Enhancing999 (talk) 01:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The lack of scope or a point to a lot of galleries is the main problem with them IMO. They don't really well as dump for random images of a large subject area, but then the reverse is also true if the gallery just exists to recreate a couple of images from a near empty category. So there really needs to be a clear purpose, direction, and theme for them to work. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Old isn't a problem as such, but it just makes it likely that the gallery isn't representative any more.: to see city landmarks, perhaps any 21st Century photo is good enough. But it is a symptom that nobody cares about the gallery, and obviously this lack of interest is a very bad sign. See my comment below: what I propose for the Atlas may be a solution for other gallery pages as well. MGeog2022 (talk) 09:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I have long felt that the gallery capability is potentially very valuable and tremendously underutilized. A few examples of ones I've done: Places of worship in Seattle, Romanian Orthodox churches in Bucharest, Pioneer Square Park. - Jmabel ! talk 19:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree. For example, I created this gallery page to show the map sheets organized in a comprehensive way. Looking at the category to which they belong doesn't provide a good general view of the map series.

Returning to the problem with some galleries, perhaps some of them are not necessary at all, but others just need more dissemination, which is the same problem Wikimedia Commons Atlas of the World has. If there was an easy way to navigate galleries, with a clear hierarchy, things would be better. Galleries are to be seen as a means, not an end in themselves. Perhaps a solution would be that Commons main page linked some special important galleries (such as Atlas of the World, and others, let's say paintings, galleries of cities, etc), that serve as a starting point to continue navigating gallery pages. MGeog2022 (talk) 09:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

In Commons main page: "If you are browsing Commons for the first time, you may want to start with Featured pictures, Quality images, Valued images or Featured media.". Why not also some special root galleries? Content section below that links to some root categories, perhaps there could be more of them there, and also some important galleries that allow navigating to many other gallery pages. MGeog2022 (talk) 09:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Returning to the true subject of this discussion, I think that Atlas of the World (perhaps also more galleries) should be linked from Commons main page. Can this be done? What do you think about it? MGeog2022 (talk) 08:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Main_cities_of_Spain_at_MTN50_first_digital_edition can work indeed, as it doesn't need maintenance.

Similarly the 1866 map at Maps_of_France#Historical_maps.

Dynamic lists are another possibility: Streets in Fresnes (Val-de-Marne).

Even in Wikipedia articles not edited on a daily basis, it can be worth comparing the current illustrations with what's available here. Sometimes all illustrations date back from the time the article was created. Enhancing999 (talk) 10:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's a problem even with text content in Wikipedia: once the subject is well covered, not much care is taken to update it. On the other hand, this probably is a lesser problem than the opposite: the tendency to replace all existing content by a new one created from scratch, in cases where it is no needed at all. In any case, as you said, the problem is not unique to Commons galleries (but the more dissemination they have, the lower the risk of this occurring). MGeog2022 (talk) 10:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really happen when users go directly to the categories and look there. Enhancing999 (talk) 10:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, galleries that only exist to replicate a category make no sense. But many others, even if they only have a subset of the images in the category, help to present them in a structured way, or to focus in the most important ones (if the category has many hundreds of elements, or many subcategories, nobody would view all of them, or be easily able to find the most important ones; good galleries fulfill this, but the matter is to have good galleries and keep them updated). MGeog2022 (talk) 10:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I like gallery pages, use them often. I also made some gallery pages, see an overview on my user page. My remarks for this discussion:

• Indeed, they need to have a clear purpose, direction, and theme. The purpose of gallery pages can be found on Commons:Galleries: "to present readers with a structured and meaningful collection of the media found here on Wikimedia Commons." Themes can be endlessly: navigating within a big category, with links to subcategories like Headgear; an impression of how something looks like, like a populated place or a landscape; an overview of the works of an artist; an overview of the live of a famous person.
• If the images in a gallery page are old or otherwise not good enough, you can always replace them with more recent or better ones. This is a wiki, so everybody may contribute, also to existing gallery pages. Can we mark a gallery page with something like: This gallery page needs some TLC (and give the reason why it should have TLC)?
• Navigation: see Category:Gallery pages. The problem is, that gallery pages often lack at least one of its subcategories. Cause may be: in the past the rule was to add either a topic OR a gallery category. Even the current text in Commons:Galleries only says that you should add the category with the same name (so a topic category) and does not say anything about Category:Gallery pages. I would like to make it a rule that a gallery page always has to be put into at least two categories: one topic and one gallery category.
• Agree: galleries that only exist to replicate a category make no sense, or only contain a few files. I see too many gallery pages that are disappointing, and where the focus of the creator certainly was not to show a meaningful collection of media. Can we make it a rule, one way or another, that a gallery page should either be about a very large category (200+ files) or about at least a couple of categories (subcategories included)? Because I see too many categories with only a few (1-3) files, but I have no good tool to address that.
• Perhaps a reward system for good quality gallery pages, just like for photos? Perhaps revive Commons:Featured galleries? That would also make it easier to choose from if links to galleries are placed on the main page of Commons.

JopkeB (talk) 18:22, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that "a gallery page should either be about a very large category (200+ files) or about at least a couple of categories" is a particularly good rule. One of the examples I gave above (Pioneer Square Park) would be useful even if those were the only images in that category. Similarly, I think, for Seattle and the Orient: even if that book were a little smaller, it's a good way to handle a book. - Jmabel ! talk 21:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

We can discuss the numbers, my proposal is just a starting point. I want to get rid of all those disappointing gallery pages, that do not have any added value, and to have a tool to address that. Category:Pioneer Square Park (Seattle) has also seven subcategories, that is enough for me. JopkeB (talk) 07:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that any rule should be applied to the gallery itself, not to the category or categories to which the included files belong. If a gallery presents a number of files in a structured way, including good descriptions, etc., there is no reason to remove it. If a gallery shows all or almost all of the files of a category that includes not many files, and doesn't show any information that isn't in the file names of the shown files, or doesn't present them in any particular structured way, or if the gallery includes, let's say, only 1 or 2 files and there isn't a special reason to have it, the gallery could well be deleted. MGeog2022 (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

For example, just showing the names/descriptions of all the files in a category in more than 1 language (file name can only be in one language), can be a good reason to have a gallery in some cases. The existence of barely viewed galleries, by itself, causes no harm to anyone. MGeog2022 (talk) 13:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point, I did not think of that. But then there should be a note in the gallery page with this reason, to prevent misunderstanding. JopkeB (talk) 14:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The existence of barely viewed galleries, by itself, causes no harm to anyone. @MGeog2022: As far as I know there are no metrics for how many views certain galleries get. Assuming there's some that have either no or extremely low views it's still a time suck maintaining them and just makes it that much harder for people to finding good galleries. Look at it like a museum with near infinite space that we are custodians of. To many niche, half thought out exhibits just detracts from educating our costumers and puts us in a position where we are wasting more time on dusting off or organizing things our costumers don't care about to begin with. Instead of building exhibits that people are actually interesting in and get educational value out of.

At least for me 99% of my time on here is acting as a glorified janitor. I much rather be uploading images and creating eductional exhibits for people. But there's just to much cleaning and reorganizing that needs to be done in most areas to even get to that point. Be it galleries, categories, or whatever, but the issue is particularly bad with galleries. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Adamant1, in any gallery page, you can be how many views per day it has at "History -> Pageviews Analysis".

I'm not saying that having galleries with few/almost none views is good, what I wanted to say is that content in Commons or any other Wikimedia project is not valued according to how many views it has. If for whatever reason people do not usually look at a well-done wiki page, it isn't a reason at all to propose its deletion. MGeog2022 (talk) 10:03, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@MGeog2022: Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that was an option. You make a good point, but I do think we are ultimately here to create things other people will see and get value out of. Not to say we should delete everything that has a low view count either. I think there's a line with galleries in particular where deletion is justified if it both has extremely low views and is badly designed without a chance of salvaging it though. But I have no issue with an extremely well designed gallery that also happens to have low viewer numbers for whatever reason either. Something like reviving Commons:Featured galleries would certainly help with that. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and is badly designed is the point I was referring to. If it has low views, it may not be worth improving the gallery in those cases. MGeog2022 (talk) 10:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviving Commons:Featured galleries would be a good thing, as it would encourage improving galleries in general. But, aside from that, I think that special galleries, or rather, systems of galleries, such as the Atlas of the World (perhaps even there are no more than this, but others such as city galleries could be organized in a similar way), that are like a project in themselves, deserve a direct link from Commons main page. MGeog2022 (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's kind of a side thing but we should really create a guideline beyond Commons:Galleries (which at least IMO is to focused on the technical) that lays out what makes a "good" gallery and provides some standard for them. I'm not sure it's possible to, or worth, encouraging people to improve galleries in general without clear standards for what makes one good to begin with though. --Adamant1 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Atlas of the World deserves a direct link from Commons main page: what do you think about that? If this view is shared by others, how is Commons main page updated (for example, I can't edit it, even having more than 1,000 edits in Commons, and obviously there is a good reason for it)? MGeog2022 (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

As a lover of maps in Commons, I stumbled regularly across these gallery pages, but the lack of curation let me ignore them completely, and I don't think I will change my attitude. It takes so much effort to categories maps properly (and the category system is may more dynamic than galleries), and we have so many ten thousand maps that are uncategorized (so not even linked to their subject), that picking a the nicest maps to showcase the subject in a dedicated Atlas-gallery-page seems like wasted effort to me. Sorry. --Enyavar (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Enyavar, thanks for your work categorizing maps, I wasn't aware of this category. I'm struck by the fact that people upload maps without any information at all (it's more likely to happen with photos, but with maps or other publications it's really striking).

If the Atlas was more known, it would be in a better state for sure. But in any case, I agree that many maps aren't and won't never be in a gallery, so perhaps Category:Maps itself could be linked from Commons main page, as the best "atlas" that we can offer to users. MGeog2022 (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

To be more precise, both maps category and Atlas of the World are already linked from main page, but they are hidden by default inside "By type -> Images". I think this should be restructured to make them more visible. They are at the same level as photos, diagrams or drawings, but an Atlas (and we could consider Maps category also as such) isn't the same as millions of photos without a defined subject, it's something whose presence should be more visible. I think they (Atlas of the World and maps category) should be directly in "Content - by topic", probably as a new entire topic to be added to Nature, Science etc. How could this change be achieved? MGeog2022 (talk) 15:02, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

August 06

Nearcoord and SDC

mw:Help:CirrusSearch#Geo_Search

it seems nearcoord doesnt work if a file only has coords in com:sdc.

either nearcoord or sdc has to be tweaked so that they work, or a bot needs to duplicate the sdc to {{Location}} on file pages. RZuo (talk) 14:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@RZuo: If you have an example search and an example file that should be in the results but is not, please make a task for that in Phabricator.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@RZuo: I would expect that including an empty {{Location}} template in the file's description would be enough. The template will automatically use the co-ordinates from structured data if it doesn't have any parameters, so there's no need to copy the co-ordinates. Have you tries that? --bjh21 (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

good tip! it works. i forgot about that.

so a bot needs to add that template to those files. RZuo (talk) 15:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@RZuo: you can request at Commons:Bots/Work requests. - Jmabel ! talk 19:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

File:Leo K Thorsness.jpg

Can someone improve the crop on File:Leo K Thorsness.jpg? When using dark mode it looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/kS6tgE5.png Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 14:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus:  Done, but it took me a couple of tries with CropTool, which doesn't respect dark mode.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 16:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@User:Jeff G. Thank you that looks a lot better! Polygnotus (talk) 17:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus: You're welcome!   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Reminder! Vote closing soon to fill vacancies of the first U4C

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Dear all,

The voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is closing soon. It is open through 10 August 2024. Read the information on the voting page on Meta-wiki to learn more about voting and voter eligibility. If you are eligible to vote and have not voted in this special election, it is important that you vote now.

Why should you vote? The U4C is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community input into the committee membership is critical to the success of the UCoC.

Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.

In cooperation with the U4C,

-- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 15:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Image file seems broken

File:Northern England.svg is an image of a map but it looks like it's broken. The image fails to appear on the Wikipedia articles it's on for at least a week. Someone please check and correct the issue here. Plarety2 (talk) 22:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks like a namespace problem:

error on line 5 at column 33: xmlns:i: '&ns_ai;' is not a valid URI

That looks like Adobe Illustrator using entities and then another application rewriting the file without expanding the entities.

Glrx (talk) 01:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Plarety2: should be fixed now. Glrx (talk) 04:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• There was a complaint earlier about svg files created with certain software no longer rendering. --RAN (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

August 07

Nominating for both speedy and community revue deletion has a problem

It appears that the nominator used speedy within the regular deletion process and when you hit the button to remove the speedy, it corrupts the initial nomination. See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Dunga_Rodrigues,_escritora_e_pianista._Cuiab%C3%A1.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=907116342 Can anything be done to fix this, other than the nominator not using both speedy and the regular deletion process at the same time? --RAN (talk) 01:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

New type of tram in Częstochowa

Examples in Category:Trams in Częstochowa by type. It is clearly not a Pesa Twist 2010N. In de description one talks of Twist II. Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Category:Files that need updating

Any idea what should be in there? It looks like almost everything "needs updating". Shouldn't that be the exception? Enhancing999 (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You put files in there that track statistical trends and are meant to be used in general Wikipedia articles (vs. articles covering a specific moment in time). A cursory glance tells me lots of files in that category don't belong there, though, like maps tracking hurricane paths that took place years ago. ReneeWrites (talk) 17:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think a substantial part of the problem is the {{Hurricane season auto track map}} template, which automatically adds {{current}} to the file page by default. Omphalographer (talk) 17:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I updated the template to limit it to the current year, but that may just be a small part.

Another 101,591 are Australian timeseries with User:99of9/ABS-graph or similar (which seem reasonable). [1] Enhancing999 (talk) 13:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I made a subcategory for the Australian stuff and cleared out some of the hurricane maps. Updating still takes some time, but the content seems much more reasonable now. Thanks for your input. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The bulk of the Australian ones are now in a subcategory. To look at files after the remaining ones, use filefrom=ABS1.

[[:Category:Files that need updating (drugs)|Drugstats] seems to be another group (ca. 1000 files). Then COVID-19 (maybe this could be removed entirely).

I fixed a few random ones and listed File:2016 DNC Primary Map.png for deletion. Enhancing999 (talk) 11:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Would it be useful to create a new subcategory for "files which should be kept updated as the facts change" (provisional name)? An example would be File:Metrication by year map.svg - it's possible that one of the three remaining countries will go metric, requiring an update to the map, but the map doesn't "need updating" other than that. There's a lot of other files, particularly maps, which are in a similar position. Omphalographer (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Omphalographer: how is this different from using {{Current}}? Or do you want an particular value there for "interval" to have a side effect? - Jmabel ! talk 23:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe by using {{current|interval=on change}} after creating Category:Files_that_need_updating on change, even if "on change" isn't an actual interval? Enhancing999 (talk) 07:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Documentation of Template:Current

I notice that the parameters that are defined in Template:Current/doc fail to show up in the resulting documentation and that parameter "subset" is undocumented. Normally I'd try to fix the latter, but the former tells me things are broken here and this should be taken on by someone more experienced with wiki templating than I am. Jmabel ! talk 23:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Noticed that too. I had tried, but couldn't figure it out so I added the list of parameters and two samples (interval and subset). Easiest might be to edit templatedata. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

August 08

Good news: Cat-a-lot works again like a charm!

For who likes to work with Cat-a-lot: since the beginning of this year there were problems. But now it works well again, also for moving/copying subcategories that have subcategories themselves. (See MediaWiki_talk:Gadget-Cat-a-lot.js#Problems_categorizing_category_pages for more information.) I now can start to clean up my list with postpones jobs because of this problem. JopkeB (talk) 03:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It is extremely useful for category maintainers like me. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 12:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It's nice to see something on here get fixed for once lol. --Adamant1 (talk) 14:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It does. Awesome. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Bangladesh files in West Bengal

While categorizing the files related to Category:Bangladesh and Category:West Bengal, I found that Beauty of my second home.jpg was categorized under WB. Upon closer inspection, I found that the college ("second home") is in Rajshahi, Bangladesh. I had also seen some Bangladesh files in WB categories before, and I had moved them to appropriate Bangladesh categories. So why do Bangladesh files get categorized under WB categories? Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 12:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Why are you asking this here instead of on the user talk page of the person who added the category? Enhancing999 (talk) 12:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, thank you. I'm asking the user instead. I have posted it here since this is a recurring phenomenon. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 12:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It's hard to give a general answer with just a single file. Possibly it's something similar that happens at Germany: anything in German might end up there. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It's worth to note that Bangladesh was known as East Bengal from 1947 until 1955, when it was renamed East Pakistan, and then in 1971 (year of independence) to Bangladesh. Perhaps this may have some connection to it. MGeog2022 (talk) 11:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the British-era province of Bengal was split into West Bengal and East Bengal in 1947. According to my analysis, the main reason of such miscategorization is probably the fact that the Bengali language is used in both Bangladesh and West Bengal. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 12:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Can someone please revert the rotation of File:EB1911 Palaeontology - ichthyosaur with young - restoration.jpg

Hi, the user SteinsplitterBot rotated "File:EB1911 Palaeontology - ichthyosaur with young - restoration.jpg" for some unknown reason.This affects the layout on the associated Page:EB1911 - Volume 20.djvu/633. Can the rotation be reverted, thanks. DivermanAU (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The rotation was requested by FunkMonk. -- Asclepias (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@DivermanAU: I've reverted the file, since your objection makes the overwriting controversial under COM:OVERWRITE. I think the rotated version looks better, though, so I've uploaded it separately as File:EB1911 Palaeontology - ichthyosaur with young - restoration (facing downwards).jpg. --bjh21 (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Now the file matches the printed page again. DivermanAU (talk) 02:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Add "Upload file" link for mobile?

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T372078

Hello friends. Today at a conference I was helping an iOS user debug a poor quality app he was using to upload files to Commons. The app was bad enough that we started looking for alternative ways to upload files, and I had him try uploading files through his iOS Safari browser instead. He opened Commons in his browser and there was no upload link, which surprised me. So I created phab:T372078 and wrote a patch to add "Upload file" to the left menu of the Minerva (mobile) skin. Clicking on it takes you to Special:UploadWizard.

When I went to go get this patch merged, someone told me that this "Upload file" link might not be wanted because it would increase uploads of unwanted images. The implication was that mobile editors have a tendency to upload images that are inappropriate for Commons. So I'd like to check with the community and see how y'all feel about adding an "Upload file" link for mobile editors. Thoughts? If this is a bad idea I will abandon my patch. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

We live in an age where almost everyone surfs the internet on a mobile device most of the time, almost every website is very specifically designed around mobile devices, and most of the time online services request people to download their apps in Google Play or similar marketplaces. Yet, for whatever reason Wikimedia websites aren't just mobile unfriendly, they are mobile hostile. What's worse is that this laptop-centric and desktop-centric thinking actively excludes the vast majority of people from developing countries, I've met plenty of rural Filipino men and women in their 20's this year that have never even seen a laptop. How can we expect these people to contribute free educational media if their browser specifically tells them that this website is only for consuming and not producing? It's time to get rid of these antiquated restrictions on mobile users. I think that we might have to lobby the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) to force their developers to edit and contribute at least two (2) whole weeks a year exclusively on mobile devices or hire engineers that only use mobile devices to contribute so they can get some valuable feedback, because they have been ignoring mobile users for years. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose It seems like a lot of COPYVIO comes from screenshots on mobile. Do we really want to make it worse by allowing people to upload directly from their phones? Probably not. It looks like we're already going to block cross project uploads for the same reason and I don't see why we should allow mobile users to upload junk in mass while not allowing people from Wikipedia to do the same. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Adamant1 Please provide a link where there is a proposal that is "... going to block cross process project uploads ..." Thank you, -- Ooligan (talk) 07:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Ooligan: Check out Commons:Village_pump/Proposals#Deactivate_cross-wiki_uploads_for_new_users. Technically it's to block uploads from people who don't have special rights but I don't think that negates my point. As it's still a restriction on making it easier for random people from uploading images to Commons in an area that leads to a massive amount of COPYVIO. Although we could restrict this to certain users or something but I'd still be against it because at the end of the day "confirmed" is a pretty low bar and it would kind of defeat the purpose anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  I feel like a big part of the problem with cross-wiki uploads was that the tool encouraged users to do the wrong thing, and thus they did indeed do the wrong thing. That is, the real issue was not that it was "mobile" it was that that was a bad tool with bad UX. I suspect having an upload link on mobile linking to Special:UploadWizard would not have the same type of problems as the cross-wiki upload tool did. Or at least not to the same degree. Bawolff (talk) 08:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  I do wonder how easy UploadWizard would be to work with on mobile. It's not the most intuitive UI even on desktop. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, please add it. I don't think this has anything to do with cross-wiki uploads. Mobile view of Commons is known to be broken. Enhancing999 (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Cross-wiki uploads is just another example of where people not uploading images directly through the website on desktop can lead to problems. I'm not claiming they are 100% exactly the same though, but there is some is (or would be) similar issues with both IMO. At the end of the day anything other then directly uploading images through Special:UploadWizard on desktop will just lead to more errors and COPYVIO. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This is much needed. The vast majority of original photos today are from phone cameras. We should make it easy to upload. The question about copyright is not really relevant, it is not linked to the skin used. Geraki ^T_L^G 12:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Geraki: "The vast majority of original photos today are from phone cameras." Are you saying this about photos in the world at large (in which case I agree) or about Commons uploads (in which case my own impression is that you are wrong, and I'd like to see some sort of evidence for that statement). - Jmabel ! talk 15:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Without neglecting the need to control COPYVIO and not overburden administrators, not allowing uploads from mobile is a discrimination against people with lower income (and it could even be viewed as racial discrimination, since, for example, black South Africans are much less likely to own a computer than white South Africans), and also against older people in most countries (who are much less likely to use a computer, but they usually use a smartphone), so it should be addressed, provided that it is possible to monitor the profile of each new user and easily detect if he/she is going to make inappropriate use. MGeog2022 (talk) 11:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I only see one objection so far, and several supports. Should this stay open for a bit longer or can the patch move forward? –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I think we should try this first limited to autopatrolled users, if there are no problems also for autoconfirmed users and if this also works we can open it for all users. If there are problems we step back to the previous limitation. GPSLeo (talk) 12:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Any patch I make to the Minerva skin needs to be wiki-agnostic. If we are going to add some logic that only applies to Commons, such as checking for permissions before displaying the link, then we might need to look into MediaWiki:minerva.js or a default gadget or something instead of a Minerva patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

As long as we no inter wiki user rights checking we can only do this by blocking after clicking on upload what of course is not a really good solution. GPSLeo (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize that anything on VP would constitute a proposal with voting. I expected that this was some people discussing something they would then propose at COM:Village pump/Proposals. I am objecting to this being a mandate to go ahead. There was no one specific proposal here I felt I could vote on. - Jmabel ! talk 16:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

August 09

Flickr2Commons

Flickr2Commons appears to be down. Does anyone know what is going on? - Jmabel ! talk 00:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @Jmabel. I also noted this continuing issue at the "Technical" page here: Commons:Village pump/Technical#Flickr2Commons tool not working for about 24 hours. I get this message currently-

* "Wikimedia Toolforge Error"

* "Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again later."

* "tools-proxy-8.tools.eqiad1.wikimedia.cloud"'

It has been about 40 hours. Other Users are apparently using this same tool without any problems. (located on other continents)

Thanks, -- Ooligan (talk) 06:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Not even connecting for me, via Optimum Online in New Jersey, USA, North America. Obviously, I can read and post here.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Via T-Mobile too - "ERR_CONNECTION_ABORTED".   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 11:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Then "ERR_NETWORK_IO_SUSPENDED" when I put my laptop into hibernation for transport, and again not connecting via Optimum Online.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 12:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Toolforge itself is responding just fine, at best 34ms away over 100 pings.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 12:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I created issue 320 for Magnus Manske.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Jeff G. -- Ooligan (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Not loading for me in Australia. Bidgee (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ooligan: You're welcome. Then, I got "Wikimedia Toolforge Error" and "Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again later." from tools-proxy-8.tools.eqiad1.wikimedia.cloud and a page titled "504 Gateway Time-out" with "Webservice request timed out". I updated that issue.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 12:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @GFontenelle (WMF) per Commons:Village pump/Archive/2023/06#Flickr Foundation adopts Flickr2Commons.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Uploading photos from City of Melbourne website

Hi. I called City of Melbourne and asked if I can use their collection's photos on https://citycollection.melbourne.vic.gov.au/collections/?col=Public%20art%20and%20memorials on Wikimedia Commons and they said if I refer photos to City of Melbourne Art and Heritage Collection with no commercial use, it is possible. Also, I want to refer to https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/copyright.

Can I actually upload photos of these public art and memorials?

Cheers Shkuru Afshar (talk) 13:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, {{Noncommercial}} isn’t an acceptable license in Wikimedia Commons. --Geohakkeri (talk) 13:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Shkuru Afshar: may I strongly suggest that you take at least a few hours to seriously familiarize yourself with what permissions are needed to get images onto Commons before going out and seeking permissions on Commons behalf? When you ask the "wrong" question in seeking permissions, it sort of "poisons the well" for anyone (including yourself) who then goes to ask the same party the right question(s). - Jmabel ! talk 15:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

How so Trade (talk) 16:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trade: was that addressed to me? - Jmabel ! talk 18:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah i was wondering how the well is poisoned Trade (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trade: Consider it from the point of view of the person who is asked. Wikimedian: "Hey, can we have permission to use your images on Wikipedia?" Person who answers email (PWAE): "Sounds good. Let me check with my boss." … later … "My boss says that would be fine, as long as it isn't used commercially." Wikimedian then checks what is needed, has to get back to them: "Actually, we can't do that. We need a specific license (like CC-BY 4.0) that allows commercial use and derivative works." PWAE: "Huh, let me see if my boss would agree to that." … later … "My boss says he guesses that's OK. Sure, you can upload them with CC-BY 4.0." Wikimedian then checks what is needed, has to get back to them: "Well, actually, just emailing that to me doesn't count as permission. What we need you to do is either to put that license on your site, or your public-facing social media, or you can go through this VRT thing…" So PWAE has to go to their boss a third time, and the boss is a lot more likely to say "F--k it" than if they had been asked the right questions in the first place. And even worse if the original Wikimedian drops it at some point in this process, and someone else goes through something like this with them again. - Jmabel ! talk 19:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It might be better to rework the VRT guide instead of blaming other editors for asking the "wrong" way Trade (talk) 20:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trade we already have the list of FAQs on top of the Village pump, and this question by @Shkuru Afshar has been answered by the number 1 question: "If you want to ask why unfree/non-commercial material is not allowed at Wikimedia Commons or if you want to suggest that allowing it would be a good thing, please do not comment here. It is probably pointless. One of Wikimedia Commons’ core principles is: 'Only free content is allowed.' This is a basic rule of the place, as inherent as the NPOV requirement on all Wikipedias." JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 19:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Shkuru Afshar (talk) 20:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Special:UncategorizedCategories

UI of Special:UncategorizedCategories has just changed, and in my opinion not for the better. Typeface is larger so less information on screen at once; hovering no longer tells you anything about whether the category has members (just repeats the obvious link, in a popup). I might have been willing to trade off the prior hover behavior for getting red links for categories that are already deleted, but we don't get that, worst of both worlds. [This seems to have been a temporary glitch. Weird. - Jmabel ! talk 20:51, 9 August 2024 (UTC)]

Also, the report is now 34 days old, which is an awfully long time between reports on something where certainly hundreds of the 1500 or so categories listed have already been dealt with. Makes it hard to spot which ones still have work to be done.

Does anyone know what is going on here, and whether there was a reason for these changes, or the now infrequent running of the report? - Jmabel ! talk 19:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Phab:T369024 it was changed to once a month. However i think part of the change was missing so it might have accidentally been changed to never (its been a long time since i have looked at the system, so i might be mistaken about that and maybe the cron job is just no longer needed or something) Bawolff (talk) 22:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

If this is used regularly to take care of these categories, I think it should run daily or at least every other day.

Maybe @Marostegui can explain why he had it deactivated how he plans to replace it.

I don't think there was a community consultation as we had at Commons:Village_pump/Proposals#Request:_delete_"Pages_where_lack_of_wikilinks_indicates_a_problem" for pointless special pages (at Commons). Enhancing999 (talk) 09:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Performance concerns are not something the community generally gets a say in. Keeping the site running in a healthy matter trumps individual Special pages. The special pages get more costly to run the larger the site gets. Enwiki already has a bunch of these on a delayed schedule, commons just got big enough that it has now become neccesary to switch some of them to once a month. Price of being big. Bawolff (talk) 11:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it was live before either. There is a big difference between something running daily and monthly.

Well, it's a substantial change to the site. One would expect that this is communicated, properly assessed and then a decision is made.

A query running for 6 minutes seems rather trivial and cheap, at least on a WMF site beyond the early days. Enhancing999 (talk) 11:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it was updated every 6 or 7 days before, which isn't that long between updates but running it four times a month instead of once really couldn't have been that costly. Once a month is kind of worthless regardless though. There should really be a middle ground between not running something like this to much while also not making the time between updates so long that it's unhelpful to doing the task. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it was every 3 days previously. I'm not sure where Enhancing999 got 6 minutes from, the query is a lot longer than that according to the phab task. Potentially devs might be open to some compromise (e.g. twice a month) if this is really causing problems, i don't know how they would feel about it but it never hurts to ask. In regards to Jmabel's concern about it being hard to see what has already been done, it would probably be pretty easy to strike out entries that dont fit the criteria the same way some other special pages do. Bawolff (talk) 11:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It was three days previously. I use it extensively. I've probably fixed several thousand of these in the last 12 months. When the data is over a month out of date, it makes the task much more difficult. Early this year we had this down to 100 or so files. It has now swelled back to over 1500. - Jmabel ! talk 19:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

August 10

Dating Monaco postcard

This is certainly not own work, but a scanned old postcard. The railway line was electrified in 1969, but there are other clues. The uploader mentions that this is the 'first' church implying that there is a later church. Unfortunatly there is no French article on the 'Couvent des Carmes' in Monaco.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I found out that the second building was openend in 2002, so this gives no dating clue (fr:Église Sainte-Thérèse de Monaco).Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

20th century for the photography? Enhancing999 (talk) 10:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Per the same article, construction of the original church (which is the one we see here I guess) was finished in 1913. --Rosenzweig τ 11:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

If I were to guess the postcard was probably published in the twenties or thirties. Publishers didn't really publish sepia postcards of that quality before then and they were pretty much phased out by the 40s in favor of black and white RPPCs. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

When has the green space build over? Space is very precious in Monaco. The entire railway was put underground to gain some space.Smiley.toerist (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

COM:CSD#G4

Should COM:CSD#G4 include files that has been tagged with {{No permission since}}, deleted after 7 days, and then reuploaded without any permission? Or how to handle such files, such as File:Lawrence Alegwu Ega.jpg? To give it further 7 days feels weird. Jonteemil (talk) 13:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jonteemil: Admins regularly patrol Category:Media missing permission and children, deleting when necessary (presumably under F5). What makes you think pages tagged for speedy deletion under F5 get "further 7 days"? That file already had 7 days. I warned the uploader to stop uploading it.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 15:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase. Are files that have been deleted in lack of permission eligible for speedy deletion once they are reuploaded? And if so, under what CSD parameter? Or, alternatively, should they just be retagged with {{No permission since}}? Jonteemil (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

No, there is no need to tag them with "No permission". Please tag them as G4, and they will be speedy deleted. Yann (talk) 16:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, then COM:CSD#G4 needs to be rephrased. As it is phrased atm it seems it only encompasses files that have been deleted after a DR, not after a PROD (no permission/license/source since), or maybe it's just me who interprets it like so. Jonteemil (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Your interpretation is correct, IMO. As noted by Jeff G., the deletion can be with F5. -- Asclepias (talk) 18:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

G4 doesn't apply by its terms, IMO. If we think these should be deleted, I think COM:CSD#F5 is a better way to do it than G4. (Indeed, looking again at F5, it might actually not need any changes: "may be given a grace period" does not mean "must", and it was already given one...) —‍Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, then I'll use F5 for these files in the future. Thanks. Jonteemil (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

August 11

Template documentation

Parameters are not being correctly displayed on template pages using the {{Documentation}} template (in turn using the {{TemplateBox}} template). This means all templates are showing just "The template takes no parameters." under the Usage section, instead of the table showing the parameters (see {{TemplateBox}} itself for this, as this template has several parameters). I have had multiple users ask about how to use templates I've worked on, due to this missing information. Does anyone know what is going on with this? Josh (talk) 01:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jarekt: Special:Diff/907688459 --Geohakkeri (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Different Types of Flagmaps

Most flag maps on Wikimedia Commons follow the naming format 'Flag_map_of_Country.' These maps have been created by various contributors, each using different base maps with varying levels of accuracy. Typically, they feature thicker border strokes in the colors of the respective flags. However, I found the inconsistencies across these maps unsatisfactory, so I created my own set of flag maps using OpenStreetMap as the base. My maps are highly accurate and consistent, with all borders depicted using black, slightly thinner strokes. So far, I have completed maps for European and Asian countries and plan to expand to other continents. My flag maps follow the naming format 'Country-Flagmap.' I'm writing this to prevent renaming conflicts and to foster consensus among users. Thank you. Kamran.nef (talk) 13:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Resolving Potential Copyright, Educational Value, and Scope Problems with Media for a Wikibooks Project

Hi there,

I've been building a project for a month on Wikibooks that introduces high school leveled physics explained through a video game. To explain, I have been uploading media from the multiplayer physics browser game Bonk.io to explain real world physical concepts. On Bonk.io, users can publicly create user-generated content, called "maps." This allows for other players to play and modify each other's works freely within the game via a database structure, called the "level select."

Wikibooks Project Link: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Physics_Explained_Through_a_Video_Game

Copyright Concerns

As recently brought to my attention by @Adamant1 (on my talk page), Bonk.io does not currently have a copyright policy for maps. As such, regardless of the fact that the physics engine of the game, BOX2D is freely licensed via a MIT License, many of my uploads for the project potentially violate Wikimedia's copyright policy. With this understanding, I have immediately contacted the developer of the game to see if user-generated content can explicitly be released under the public domain.

With much of the media that I have uploaded for this project, they are partially derived from user-generated content on Bonk.io that was created by another user. Because of the lack of a formal licensing policy for maps, I have notified the other users of whom I had used maps for their permission for others to modify and use their work freely. At this time, I have had confirmation on Discord (messaging website) from several users, comprising the majority of the uploaded content, that they are okay with their work being in the public domain (specifically Creative Commons 0).

However, I am unsure of whether if another individual claims that their work is in the public domain, provided that the database lacks a formal copyright policy, that this is acceptable under Wikimedia's copyright policy as freely licensed content. Secondly, I am unsure of how these individuals can be independently verified by others on Wikimedia such that it is clear that the original publisher of the map on the Bonk.io database has claimed that their work is in the public domain. As such, this alternative method may be problematic.

To note, my goal is to reach a resolution with the existing copyright concerns that exist with my uploads. Ideally, I want to resolve this problem such that my project on Wikibooks remains functional and can grow, even if such a resolution will be time-extensive on my part.

Educational Value Concerns

In addition, I was informed that my existing project may fail to meet the educational value requirement for uploaded media on articles. This is because of concerns on how well the a video game engine can model real world physics and whether it can be realistically used as an educational resource.

To note, I strongly feel that my uploaded media does adequately function as an educational resource for explaining topics in elementary mechanical physics. However, I acknowledge there are limitations of the Bonk.io game and the BOX2D physics engine, including that:

• The content is displayed in a two-dimensional environment.
• Shapes in user-created maps are only solidly colored.
• Automatic lightning and shading is unavailable.
• A limited number of physical concepts are presentable. For example, fluids cannot exist in the game.

As such, this may make the uploaded media as a lower quality resource for general usage on Wikimedia, especially compared to media that exists from more powerful physics simulators, such as Unity or Algodoo. However, it does not impair the ability to use this resource for explaining elementary mechanical physics, in my opinion. This is particularly the case if high quality maps that are specifically designed to model real world situations are used.

Scope Concerns

Finally, I understand that there presently is not a clear policy on Wikibooks on whether video game content can be used to discuss real-world concepts. To note, content that wholly concerns video games, specifically strategy guides, were approved by a consensus on Wikibooks back in 2021.

To my understanding, there has not yet been a discussion on whether video game content can be used to talk about real-world concepts on Wikibooks. Also, I am unaware about any other projects on Wikibooks that have or had existed specifically in this topic area. If needed, I would be more than willing to encourage community discussion on Wikibooks to decide if my project, in regards to its topic, is appropriate on the site.

Questions

1. Would the approval of the developer of Bonk.io that uploaded content is under the public domain resolve copyright concerns for using any uploaded media on the database?
2. Would approval from individual players that their maps are under the public domain alternatively resolve these concerns?
3. If "yes" to Question 2, how can this be done to assure the authenticity of each of these players such that others on Wikimedia Commons can independently verify this?
4. Does the current state of some or all of my uploads for the above-mentioned project fall under "Low-quality content that does not add value beyond our existing coverage of the same topic" on Wikimedia Commons, thereby not being realistically useful for an educational purpose?
5. Should there be a community discussion on Wikibooks concerning whether my project's topic is appropriate for Wikibooks?

TheMonkeyEatsBananas (talk) 18:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

E.R.C. acronym

At File:Walter Lindsey Avery (1892-1978) biography in History of Ohio State University.png from 1918 I have been able to expand all the acronyms except "E.R.C.", can anyone work out what it meant in 1918? Most of the acronyms were military jargon from WWI. --RAN (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I know nothing about military history but could it make sense for the acronym to refer to Enlisted Reserve Corps (which I guess is a term of art of some sort)? --Geohakkeri (talk) 21:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

One‑off Creative Commons license on East Side Gallery photograph

The East Side Gallery is located in Berlin. And I am currently contributing to a project that includes one of the graffiti artworks and will be talking to the artist in due course. I recently took a photograph of their artwork and am happy to license it CC‑BY‑4.0 or similar and/or assign copyright to another party. But my photograph is merely a record of that artwork, albeit with the perspective tweaked, barrel distortion removed, and other similar edits. The underlying artwork would remain copyright of the artist. So here is my question.

Should I approach the artist, offer to transfer my copyright in the photograph to them, and then get them to issue that one photograph under CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0 for just that one photograph. That is why I headed my inquiry "one‑off Creative Commons license".

Is this suggestion legally feasible? Or would this one‑time license just leak to all subsequent photographs by all others? (And the East Side Gallery is widely photographed by tourists.) The German copyright act would apply I guess? The artist in question is resident in New Zealand, but I doubt if that is material?

Would be nice to have more visual reference material on Wikipedia. TIA, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 21:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)