User talk:TheMonkeyEatsBananas

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, TheMonkeyEatsBananas!

First steps tutorial Our first steps tour and our frequently asked questions will help you a lot after registration. They explain how to customize the interface (for example the language), how to upload files and our basic licensing policy (Wikimedia Commons only accepts free content). You don't need technical skills in order to contribute here. Be bold when contributing and assume good faith when interacting with others. This is a wiki. Getting help More information is available at the community portal. You may ask questions at the help desk, village pump or on IRC channel #wikimedia-commons (webchat). You can also contact an administrator on their talk page. If you have a specific copyright question, ask at the copyright village pump.

Goodies, tips, and tricks Put Babel boxes on your user page so others know what languages you can speak and indicate your graphic abilities. You can find the files you have uploaded in your Uploads. Please sign your name on Talk pages by typing ~~~~. To link to an image page without embedding the image, type: [[:File:Foo.jpg]], which produces: File:Foo.jpg. You may enable gadgets (custom features) for your account. There are several tools to upload files. Have you edited Wikipedia before? This guide might be useful. Made a mistake? Do you want to have a file renamed or moved? Use the move link and wait for an authorized user to rename it. Do you want to have your recently uploaded picture removed? Tag it as {{speedy|reason here}}. For more information read the deletion guidelines.

-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 08:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Question about uploads

Hi. Do you mind if I ask why you think the files your uploading are educational? Because they don't seem to be but I don't want to nominate them for deletion as out of scope if I'm not aware of what makes them educationally useful. Thanks. Adamant1 (talk) 09:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi there.

To clarify, the files that I'm uploading are part of a Wikibooks project (link) that I began recently that explains introductory physics through a video game. More specifically, the files that I'm uploading are from the freely-licensed multiplayer browser game Bonk.io, which runs on BOX2D, a common video game physics engine. In this project, the uploaded media is used to provide an explanation of real-world physics in a textbook-style format.

Some of the uploaded media is raw gameplay footage from Bonk.io. In this case, they are used as visual references to later discuss physical concepts. For example, a video of a swimming koi fish at a constant velocity in Bonk.io can help introduce Newton's First Law, a real-world physics concept. The rest of the media that I've uploaded are diagrams and other visualizations (often overlaid over raw gameplay footage) that provide further discussion.

I understand that these materials may lack a practical educational use outside of this project. For instance, the files that I uploaded would be inappropriate on a Wikipedia article about a mechanical physics topic for multiple reasons. However, with how my uploaded media is being utilized on the above-mentioned Wikibooks project, I feel that my uploads have met COM:EDUSE.

Best regards,

TheMonkeyEatsBananas (talk) 22:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. A few things, first do you have a link to bonk.io's copyright terms? Because I don't see anything on their website saying it's PD. Let alone that anyone can use images or video of the game however they want. Just because the original engine is open source doesn't mean products that use it can't be closed source or copyrighted either. Second, if you agree that the files would be inappropriate on a Wikipedia article about a mechanical physics topic for multiple reasons then what makes them appropriate for a Wikibook? As far as I know they don't have a lower standard to how accurate information on there has to be and it's extremely questionable that a video game engine meets that bar. I certainly don't think it would for how "educational value" is defined on Commons. Unless the files were specifically being used to illustrate game engines or something like that, but your not using the files that way. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I acknowledge your concerns. As such, I agree with requesting a nomination for deletion discussion for almost all of my uploaded work because of Wikimedia's copyright policy. I will support that measure unless all copyright problems concerning my work become resolved. The exception is media that I had created entirely by myself, which includes several files (below). With these specific files, I currently contest with their deletion.

• File:SnakeFBD.png
• File:FrictionOnBlock.webm
• File:Snakevectorchoices.webp
• File:Cavelaunch.png
• File:ForceRocket.webm
• File:BlockMotion.webm
• File:BlockMotion2.webm
• File:SpeedvsVelocity.webm
• File:TotalDistance2.webm
• File:TotalDistance1.webm
• File:Snake.webm

Context and Potential Solutions With the Copyright Issue

With the copyright issue, I have just contacted the developer of Bonk.io for clarification regarding the licensing policy on the game via email. This specifically regards whether he is willing to release user-uploaded content into the public domain. If it is in your interest, I can forward any relevant email conversation to you. To note, his public email address (as stated on the Bonk.io website) is bugs@bonk.io. This may be the strongest way to resolve this issue regarding the licensing of the files.

As context of why I had uploaded this content to Wikimedia Commons in the first place, this was done with the direct approval from each user of whom I used their user-generated content in advance. These conversations were carried out through Discord. However, I can immediately provide you these conversations in relation to each uploaded file if desired. Alternatively, if you would prefer, I can request for these people to contact me through email, providing their approval for their work to be released into the public domain and forwarding this to you. I understand that these back-up methods are potentially flawed because of the need to verify each individual.

Regarding the Quality Issue

On another note, about the discussion on whether my uploaded media quality, I disagree that my uploads should be removed from Wikimedia for this reason. This is because COM:INUSE specifically states that regardless of the quality of uploaded media, it cannot be subjected to deletion as long is it is in use. At this time, the uploaded media is in use on the above-mentioned Wikibooks project.

While I acknowledge that my contributions by themselves don't satisfy the same quality as some professionally created physical simulations or representations that already exist on Wikimedia, that has not been my intention. My goal has been to use these portions of gameplay from the previously-mentioned browser game to introduce physical concepts. This is done through with the uploaded media being combined alongside commentary, examples, worked out solutions, and practice problems.

Instead of universally serving as examples on their own, my contributed media is designed to be used in relation to the rest of the article. For instance, File:FBDFrogShrine.png is designed as a portion of a practice problem in Topic 2.3 - Newton's Second Law of the project. The visualization of an unfinished free body diagram of a player resting on a frog, in my opinion, does not provide the same degree of information as a properly finished free body diagram. However, in the context of it being a problem for readers to solve, it serves educational value that would not have been possible with existing media.

Similar examples to this include, but are not limited to:

• File:FerrisWheelCoM(1).png in Topic 2.1 - Systems and Center of Mass
• File:OverlaySnakeCenterOfMass.png in Topic 2.1 - Systems and Center of Mass
• File:ChoiceAShark.webp, File:ChoiceBShark.webp, and File:ChoiceCShark.webp in Topic 1.5 - Motion in Two Dimensions

In other situations, such as in Topic 2.2 - Forces and Free Body Diagrams of the project, media (including File:RinoWalk.webm and File:SpringForest.webm) is used to provide visual references and context for the discussed physical concepts. In this, they help to complement the existing physical concepts discussed in the article by providing a visual aid for readers. As such, they improve the article's quality through making the content more understandable.

Although it would be challenging to include these files into a physics-related Wikipedia article, this is because most physics media on these articles uses real-world imagery and video to discuss real-world concepts. To note, there are exceptions to this, such as with File:Friction Animation 2 Blocks.gif on the Wikipedia article for Friction. However, it is important to acknowledge the limitations of Bonk.io and its BOX2D physics engine as both being two-dimensional and a having limited graphical interface (polygons are colored solidly, shadows from light cannot be cast, etc.).

This makes the uploaded media inferior to most of the media created through physics engines that is currently on physics-related articles on Wikipedia. Still though, my uploaded work satisfies the ability to visualize, explain, or demonstrate elementary high-school leveled mechanical physics concepts as shown by the existing content of the project.

Regarding the Scope Issue

Finally, in respect to the scope of the project, I understand your concerns. For reference, Wikibooks through consensus in 2021 agreed to allow for strategy guides for video games to be allowable article content. However, there has never been discussion regarding the using video games to explain real-life subject material to the best of my understanding. Also, to the best of my understanding, this type of project has not been done before by a Wikibooks user. If necessary, I can ask other Wikibookians about allowing projects like mine to explicitly fall under the scope of Wikibooks under official policy.

Questions for You

If possible, I would like to keep a dialogue between us regarding these issues. As questions for you:

• Would clarification from the developer of Bonk.io that user-uploaded content is released under the public domain resolve the problem concerning the copyright issues that you've mentioned?
• Would approval from individual users that they accept having their uploaded work in Bonk.io be under the public domain alternatively satisfy the mentioned copyright issues?
• Do you support a public discussion on Wikibooks regarding the acceptability of using video games to explain real-world concepts, given the apparent lack of a precedent?

Best regards,

TheMonkeyEatsBananas (talk) 03:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

As a change to my part of my discussion "Regarding the Quality Issue,"

"Although it would be challenging to include these files into a physics-related Wikipedia article, this is because most physics media on these articles uses real-world imagery and video to discuss real-world concepts."

I would like to clarify that my usage of "real-world imagery and video" was unclear. I had meant to refer to all physics-related content that isn't created through a physics engine. TheMonkeyEatsBananas (talk) 09:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)