User talk:H-stt/Archives/2010/

Misty Fjords

Thanks for your comment/request that you placed on my talk page. I responded on my talk page as well. Please forgive the undisciplined length at which I went on and on. —Werewombat (talk) 22:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Welcoming users to Commons

Hi! Is this how new users are usually welcomed to Commons? It seems awfully confrontational and doesn't really encourage anyone to start contributing here. Is there really a rule that new users are not allowed to discuss policy? Best regards, Jafeluv (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

In fact it is not an usual approach to Commons that a totally new account introduces himself by discussion policy and questioning the validity of statements by executives and board members of the Foundation. --h-stt !? 09:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand that it's not something that happens often. I was just wondering if it was forbidden, as you implied. Jafeluv (talk) 10:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Admin

OK, now done. Can you go to Commons:Administrators/Requests and votes/H-stt and accept the nom?

resolved --h-stt !? 09:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

FP Nomination

Nomination Notification

G'day! I love File:Mt Redoubt 2009-03-21 1237756418 ak231.JPG, that you've uploaded to Commons, so I've nominated it for Featured Picture status. Its nomination is at Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Mt Redoubt 2009-03-21 1237756418 ak231.JPG. Best of luck! Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 10:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

resolved --h-stt !? 09:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Air France 447

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:WhisperToMe&diff=cur

H-stt, I am not spamming the list. The list was very long and it takes a long time for the list to be completed. It's not that nobody wants to do it. On the contrary. Look at what happens to the list as I post it again and again. It gets smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And smaller. As more of the list is done, it gets closer to completion, it is a long work in progress, not a list nobody wants to touch. I will say this again, the reposting is justified because this is was long, long work in progress, not a spam of an unwanted request.

And the list has to be reposted as the bot keeps archiving it, because archived content is out of sight and out of mind. The list needs to be in sight and in mind until it is done. I will repost the list until it is totally finished, unless someone reverts the bot every time it tries to archive the list. The list only has nine images left, and it is almost done.

Thank you for your understanding WhisperToMe (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

1. About posting in multiple places, you only have to say once to the person posting "please post in one this/place," or post instructions on your talk pages saying "if you do start a discussion, please keep it one place" - Your talk page says nothing about keeping discussion in one place, and not everyone feels that way about talk page messages. Some people appreciate having the same message posted to multiple project pages so that they know that another user is replying, and from there they establish a common place of discussion.

"You copied your reply to my message to three separate places (here, my talk page and my talk page on de-WP) -"

a. I see no problem regarding myself posting messages to my own talk page

b. Since this has to do with the Commons, I posted it on your commons talk page

c. Your own page says "I look at Commons regularly, but if you want to notify me as fast as possible, please use my talk page on the German Wikipedia (English is welcome, Français est d'accord): de:Benutzer_Diskussion:H-stt" - and my first reply was a message I wanted you to read, I posted it there too in case you don't check Commons in a week or a month. I had every reason to think of this as a possibility, since in August 2009 you received a notice due to lack of activity

Considering the instructions on your talk page, I find the way I notified you of my reply to be reasonable. If you don't want people notifying you in multiple places, then post a message on your talk page saying so.

2. "You post a list of tasks repeatedly to motivate others to do something for you" - Because the bot archives it and I cannot prevent the bot from doing so - there isn't a human removing the messages - it's just an automatic reflex by the bot. No person is passing judgment over the posts. There is no unanimous consensus saying "we will not fulfill your requests" etc. as is demonstrated by the fact that people have been fulfilling my requests and nobody else has said that I should not do this. I post repeatedly only because the bot keeps archiving, and progress was made on the list each and every time.

3. The paragraph starting with "You do it a few times and it looks harmless."

I am not aware of any Commons guidelines or policies that frown upon this, and no other users told me that the repeated postings were inappropriate.

Back after the AF447 incident happened I posted a flurry of requests to the French and Portuguese village pumps, and the users translated everything. Nobody told me that my repeated requests were inappropriate. I awarded barnstars to three users who did the translating (two for French, one for Portuguese).

Then I decided to ask for German stuff after AF began posting 447-related material in German (Germans were the 3rd largest group on AF447)

Additionally if the number of outstanding translation requests increases, there are other solutions, such as creating a separate "text translation request" page for the Commons - Because I know of no such page here, and because German speakers are at Commons:Forum, I found Commons:Forum to be the best place to post my translation requests. Once Commons grows, the phenomenon you mentioned could happen, but Commons will simply find more efficient ways of dealing with those requests instead of people always posting on the main village pumps - they would be able to post other requests elsewhere in more efficient ways.

4. "do you even notice what you are doing, spammer!" - That response is very inflammatory and not in the manner that people talk to others on Wikimedia projects. People on Wikimedia projects would say "these actions constitute Spam as per [insert whatever guideline or policy] and are not permitted, please refrain from doing so" - There's no attempt at labeling a user (as "spammer" is a label), and there is always a reference to a policy or guideline so the user is sure that this isn't a subjective judgment

5. Your last sentence was clearly in humor, though. But I'm not sure what message that would get across to others

Regarding this matter I will be happy to post this in Commons:Village pump so other readers can consider this.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

How comes, you don't even mention my core claim? Commons:Forum as well as the Village Pump and all the other pages in different languages is a discussion place. It is not a place for request. Not for individual request, though they might be tolerated or even welcome, but certainly not for repeatedly posted serial requests. Translation requests have their own page. Going somewhere else, because you hope to find an audience there is the mindset of a spammer. You think you are clever and you wonder why not everyone does it your way. Guess what happened if everyone did it that way? --h-stt !? 16:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

1. "How comes, you don't even mention my core claim?" -- Your core claim was in the entire paragraph that I discussed (The paragraph starting with "You do it a few times and it looks harmless."). - I stated that when "everyone does it" the Commons will find its own ways of dealing with, and will deal with in an appropriate manner. The system will adapt, H-stt. The English Wikipedia began setting up additional pages and guidelines to deal with increases in requests. The Commons is perfectly capable of adapting itself to demand. If "everyone does it" then other editors will say "we need another way to deal with it" and a solution will naturally occur.

2. "It is not a place for request. Not for individual request, though they might be tolerated or even welcome, but certainly not for repeatedly posted serial requests." - So far you are the only person to tell me that. No other users told me to not do that. Commons:Village_pump does not say that village pump pages are not the places for repeated requests about matters. I have been making translation requests on Village pump pages for months and nobody told me that my repeated requests were inappropriate.

3. Commons:Requests for translation has little activity and is not known by much of the population. You were the first person to tell me about Commons:Requests for translation - Commons:Deletion requests/Commons:Requests for translation itself confirms that as of June 2009 there was little activity on the page (check the edit histories of the transclusion templates!). If you want the Commons population to use this page, then propose to have all of the village pumps link to this page and have them ask people to put translation requests there. I cannot expect to use "Requests for translation" in a meaningful way because things do not get accomplished on that page; the translation requests on "Requests for translation" have not been fulfilled.

4. "Going somewhere else, because you hope to find an audience there is the mindset of a spammer." - Firstly I was unaware of Commons:Requests for translation, and even then it is not a feasible option due to the lack of activity. H-stt, there is no "somewhere else" for German translations other than the German Forum. Also a "spammer" generally refers to inappropriate promotion and advocacy. I can make a request and have it widely known and still do so in an appropriate manner. I maintain that the posts to the German Forum, the only place where I can reasonably expect a translation request in German to be fulfilled, were appropriate.

I suspect that your posts above are beliefs that you want implemented on the Commons that are not written down in the policies and guidelines (people using Commons:Requests for translation instead of the village pumps for repeated and lengthy translation requests), then please submit a proposal on the English Village pump and outline what you want to be implemented and what you want to be enacted as policies and guidelines.

H-stt, also please stop trying to sound like you are in an argument or a confrontation. Focus on the issues, not the person. We are having a friendly discussion about Wikipedia policies; we are not supposed to be engaged in a bitter argument.

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. You really are a show case for a newbie spammer. This is textbook reasoning of someone who unsustainably abuses shared resources for his own purposes. All spammmers start this way. They believe to have found a clever way to promote their agenda and don't waste a single thought if their method is destructive. Please read en:Tragedy of the commons. --h-stt !? 09:42, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The post above makes does not address what I posted at 18:31 UTC on March 18, 2010.

Personal attacks are not allowed on the Commons. Commons:Talk_page_guidelines#Disputes links to Wikipedia:No personal attacks, so Commons is using the English Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:49, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Also look at the discussion pyramid in this section: Commons:Talk_page_guidelines#In_general - From now on you need to keep your responses to the top of the pyramid. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

As you are talking about my style of discussion instead of the subject at hand, does that mean you don't have anything to say to defend your actions? If so, I really hope you will cease to use discussion pages to advertise your agenda and stop to spread tasks there. If you then keep discussion where they stared instead of copying your answers to any place you can think of, this whole mess might bring some constructive result. --h-stt !? 11:39, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

1. I defended my actions in 18:31, 18 March 2010 and your reply ignored that post - your reply did not address the reality of the fact that village pumps are the only places for those requests - the reality that there is no better way to make a long group of photo requests - the reality that such requests are allowed

2. The way I am reposting my requests on the Forum is permitted and it is the only way that such a request can be accomplished

3. Commons does not allow editing of archived discussions - when a discussion is archived I cannot change the text of what was archived - I have to repost the request so it can be continue to be discussed and so people can comment and say "those pictures are done" and so people will know that the request is still there and that it needs to be addressed - it does not make sense to let the long AF447 request get archived and not repost it- once it is totally resolved, only then should I not bring it up again

About posting replies on multiple user talk pages, just add a "please keep the discussion in one place" in your user talk page and people will follow that instruction - not everybody feels that strongly about keeping talk page discussions in one section

Even though you are saying that long requests are prohibited, nothing is written down anywhere that says so; This is your belief, not Commons policy.

If you want to change this, you need to start an English village pump post and propose a different system. Propose that village pumps link to a central translation page. Propose that people ought to only post translation requests to that one place. Propose that the translation request page will be watched by many people. Until then, village pumps are the places to post repeated and long requests, and incomplete requests will be reposted

WhisperToMe (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Obviously you never answered the the original accusation, that your method is destructive, because it is not sustainable if applied regularly and by others. So please do that now. --h-stt !? 13:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

New venue: Commons_talk:Village_pump#Translation_requests_on_village_pumps WhisperToMe (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

On the English village pump a user linked Commons:Requests for translation - Since this is a solution to the translation stuff, would you mind doing the same on Commons:Forum? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 13:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Why would I? Spam is defined by the number, a single - even unsuitable - request is not the issue. --h-stt !? 19:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

H-stt, you advocated for the usage of the Commons:Translation_requests several posts ago. People won't know that the place is the right place for translation requests (no matter how many - one or 20) unless the German village pump message has an explicit message saying "for translation requests, go here" - If that message is put in the header of the Commons:Forum, people will know that this is where they should post their requests, whether they have 1, 5, 10, or 20.

On the English village pump people agreed to link to the translation requests page. The English village pump already is fairly busy, so users agreed to move translation requests to Commons:Translation requests. Someone else took the liberty of translating Commons:Translation requests into German so people can use it. The reason why Commons:Translation_requests didn't work is that nobody knew it existed. Now that the English village pump links to it, its traffic has skyrocketed, and now people monitor the page.

stt, the place is the issue. One is justified in making large numbers of photo requests. It is a matter of putting them in the right place. If the village pump believes that a large number of translation requests would be too much, then Commons:Translation_requests will handle the traffic

BTW, in regards to the usage of the word "spam," it would be nice to start a village pump discussion on how that word is defined by the Commons community. The English Wikipedia refers to advertising as spam (en:Wikipedia:Spam)

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

A single request for help in the german language Forum would not have irritated me to this degree, therefore I will not intervene with this request on the english village pump. You spammed the forum deliberately and several times, so I addressed you on your talk page. And please read en:Spam (electronic), because the internal definition of the enWP in their Wikipedia name space is of no relevancy at Commons. --h-stt !? 21:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

"therefore I will not intervene with this request on the english village pump." - The request I am talking to you about is in regards to the German village pump. I just pointed to the English one as an example of how to do it.

"You spammed the forum deliberately and several times, so I addressed you on your talk page." That is incorrect. I posted a justifiable, reasonable, appropriate translation request once, and re-posted multiple times it when a bot removed the old post. ::::The German village pump had nothing stating that such a thing wasn't allowed, so my actions were allowed and reasonable for the German village pump. If something is not disallowed, it is allowed. Your post on my talk page did not cite any Commons policies or guidelines, and were firmly rooted in your personal opinions. Commons had no policies or guidelines stating that my actions were not allowed, nor did it have any better place for them. No other user on the Commons told me to not use the German village pump in that way.

Because no Commons policies and guidelines say otherwise, it is/was reasonable and justifiable to list entire categories for translation, and to make repeated requests on the German Forum page. The English village pump decided that the appropriate forum for the requests was the Translation requests page. If the German Forum page does too, then all translation requests will go there.

"And please read en:Spam (electronic), because the internal definition of the enWP in their Wikipedia name space is of no relevancy at Commons." - And neither does a single page on the English Wikipedia, which does not describe policies or guidelines. Even then, that English Wikipedia entry talks mainly about people who post undesired messages in order to promote their own businesses and make money. Commons does not have a definition of Spam, and it needs one. I posted Commons:Village_pump#Spam on the English village pump to see what the community definition will be.

"Canvassing" (en:Wikipedia:Canvassing is the proper Wikipedia term for a Wikipedian posting messages to inform the community of a proposal or message. While Commons:Canvassing does not yet exist, I'll go ahead and propose that as well. The Wikipedia page says that there are appropriate and inappropriate forms of Canvassing. "Inappropriate canvassing" would be someone posting the same unsolicited message across multiple pages, talk pages, articles, and/or user talk pages, affecting multiple users. I posted the translation requests on one page (Commons:Forum), and in a place where people would be interested in the message (German speakers). If I had posted the request across all of the village pumps and all of the talk pages, it would be unwelcome because many of the people reading the message would be unable to do anything about it (lack of knowledge of German). By posting the messages in one place (Forum) only people who could do something about it were informed, and no user talk pages were involved.

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Again you are pointing to policies of enWP. They do not apply here on Commons. This discussion obviously is not leading anywhere so I end it hereby. Please refrain from posting repeatedly the same requests anywhere, and please refrain from writing lengthy explanations of your innocence. Have a nice life. --h-stt !? 09:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Category:Northern Arizona

I see you speak 4 languages. I have recently worked on Spanish articles for Egyptian hieroglyphs.. ... I have worked years on hieroglyphs, starting with the en:Rosetta Stone, then I did some cuneiform: 3 categories for en:Category:Amarna letters authors, en:Category:Amarna letters officials, and locations. It was an 8-10 week effort. I am presently working on moutain ranges/valleys,peaks, (landforms)(en:Maria fold and thrust belt(northwest en:Sonoran Desert)...just started putting "location boxes", on articles, so learning more about "GeoBoxes"... I did the cat: Category:Northern Arizona because the National monuments didn't fit completely: the cat: Category:Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument is just east of the cat: for Category:Arizona Strip and is not in the en:Colorado Plateau or the cat: Category:Colorado Plateau region of Arizona. It is at the other corner of the state. Thus..... the Grand Canyon Parashant doesn't go in any other "Regional Cats"...only Category:National Monuments of Arizona.

Other subcats can be put in Category:Northern Arizona... namely Navajo Nation cats, or Monument Valley, or Category:Colorado Plateau region of Arizona, which is all of northeast Arizona..... (I'm working on a lot of stuff, so give me some time, and I'll work out some more of Category:Regions of Arizona.) (I did the original en:Regions of Arizona. Thanx.... (from the HOT-SonoranDesert, ArizonaUSA....)

(see (I used a spanish fellows egyptian correct "signs", and used his template, modified) en:List of Egyptian hieroglyphs by common name: A-L, and en:List of Egyptian hieroglyphs by common name: M-Z and en:Hare (hieroglyph), then Spanish gets to the "Alphabet 24-letter Navigation Box",(I created, he modified it, and added the correct aophabetic characters) ((Hare is the Verb: "To be",(is, are, was), for Hare, (Liebre in Spanish, and I see French: Lievre, if I knew French, I'd try some articles in French. the Spanish ones I created, are pretty-much just STUB's).... "SHALAMU" (cuneiform) (be safe) (from the HOT-SonoranDesert, ArizonaUSA....)--Mmcannis (talk) 22:16, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Wait a moment, what is all that about hieroglyphs? Can we please stick to Northern Arizona? The en:Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument is fully in the en:Arizona strip, and because of that the monument's category would fit perfectly in the Category:Arizona Strip. And I am not really happy with splitting Category:Colorado Plateau (which is a geomorphological region) along the state lines (which are political regions). I would prefer to have one geomorphological cat for the plateau region (as defined by the USGS), and separate cats for the political entities, without mixing the two realms. Third: I still don't understand what "Northern Arizona" is. Who defined the border of "northern" and by which criteria? --h-stt !? 08:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Admin inactivity

Hello H-stt, you might be interested in this discussion: Commons_talk:Administrators/De-adminship#Activity -- A9 (talk) 06:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

File:Dino-des-jahres_nabu_frank-griesel.jpg

File:Dino-des-jahres_nabu_frank-griesel.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

FunkMonk (talk) 14:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

File:Süßer die Glocken nie klingen 01.jpg

Hallo H-stt, Du hast einen SLA auf diese Datei gestellt, FrobenChristoph hat Einspruch eingelegt, weswegen ich das in einen regulären LA verwandelt habe. Mir fiel dabei übrigens auf, dass Du beim Stellen des SLA den Hochlader nicht benachrichtigt hast — das wäre hier sonst so üblich. Viele Grüße, AFBorchert (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)