User talk:Elkost/Archive8

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Nandi

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Nandi_01.jpg&curid=6306569&diff=393646086&oldid=146989964: not sure I get what you are doing here. Why is there a reason to empty this category? - Jmabel ! talk 17:00, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel Hi, Jmabel! Hindu deities (Hindu religion and Hindu mythology, too) concern not only India but also neighbour, farther and even remote countries. It is not correct to attach the general categories of this widespread religion only to the main Hindu country – India, and create a common category for the rest countries. The most useful in this case is to compare with the other most widespread religions: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism. There is no such category (like C:Nandi sculptures outside India) anywhere, at least I've not met. That is why I emptied this category. --Elkost (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

So perhaps there should be (for example) C:Nandi sculptures in the United States? I think I would have diffused the category like that rather than just kill it. - Jmabel ! talk 04:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

It needs subcategories by country and sculpture type. If there are at least 2 files/categories (not only 1) about a country we can create a country category. The correct naming model is „Category:Sculptures of ... in ...“. Usually there are subcategories for sculpture types like „C:Statues of ...“ and „C:Reliefs of ...“ I'll take care today. --Elkost (talk) 05:25, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! - Jmabel ! talk 16:01, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Category:Tourism_by_city_by_country

Tourism by city by country has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category.

In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

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Lordysart (talk) 03:02, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

@Lordysart. I have just answered on the discussion page. --Elkost (talk) 05:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorting keys

Hi Elkost,

I've noticed you changing a lot of the sorting keys that I've put in place. Can you please write out your system, and we can perhaps discuss it - otherwise we'll just continue to undo each other's work. I've tried to use + for in/of location subcategories, ? for unidentified, and * for "by x" subcategories (other than location ones). Thanks - Themightyquill (talk) 14:37, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Themightyquill! The keys of my system represent the grade of subcategory relationship to the object (theme) of the category. Usually I use * as a key, sometimes + and -, rarely !, ?, etc. Here are the keys:

* for mentioned subtypes of the category objects, e.g. Buildings in Chile, 18th century buildings, etc.;
+ for elements of the category objects, e.g. building elements like walls, roofs, etc.;
- for items, less related to the category objects, e.g. objects in buildings, etc.;
! for subtypes, separated from the * group by a criterion, e.g. material, etc.;
? for objects, unidentified by the category criterion, e.g. country, city, etc. --Elkost (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

In fact, I do not stick rigidly to this graduation: if there are no elements, I use firstly * anyway. --Elkost (talk) 15:51, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I've missed the most important, at the top:

0. (space) for subtypes, defined by 2 criteria. e.g. Houses by country by type, Houses by type by country. --Elkost (talk) 16:17, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Elkost. I'm with you for the most part, but it seems to me that Category:Houses by color by country shouldn't be in Category:Houses at all, but in other metacategories Category:Houses by country and Category:Houses by color, at which point it wouldn't need to be different than the normal ! categories. I would also say your system works against the norm, where both space and * are most commonly used for "group by criterion" subcategories, not !. I still think it would be desireable to use something special for location sub-categories (so that X by city and X by country are near each other), but that's more my personal preference than a logical argument. - Themightyquill (talk) 20:24, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Of course, Themightyquill, I agree with you that “C::Houses by color by country” shouldn't be in “C:Houses”, but in “C:Houses by country” and in “C:Houses by color” – there is no doubt; I've just given examples for categories with 2 criteria. Anyway I feel necessary to separate such a “group by 2 criteria” (if any) from the “group by 1 criterion” – just for convenience to find quickly couples like “by country by type” and the opposite. Regarding the “!” sign – I use it very rarely. --Elkost (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Category:Calderstones Park gate

Calderstones Park is huge. It has several gates. THat's why we don't necessarily rely on what Historic England say it is. Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 12:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Rodhullandemu! Maybe adding of S (to „gate“) would be useful. --Elkost (talk) 12:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm thinking "main gates" or "main entrance" might be better- the latter includes the statues. Thoughts? Rodhullandemu (talk) 12:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rodhullandemu: ‘Gate’ is better, as it is a kind of ‘entrance’ (as per our categorization). But why are you using plurals? Are there several main gates? If not, let me rename it to «main gate». --Elkost (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, "Main gate" is fine. It's just that they are a pair, I think. Havern't been there for a while. Rodhullandemu (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Random category edits

Hello, I welcome all kind of improvements in Commons like changings Quality images of Bulgaria with Quality images of Varna Province or also fixing a type in Quality images or rivers. But, please, when doing so, let alone all other categories like Images by User:Poco a poco or Images taken with Canon EOS 5DS R. Unfortunately it isn't the first time I come here to report that. Thank you. --Poco a poco (talk) 10:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Welcome again, Poco a poco! First of all, I highly appreciate and thank you for your photographs of my country and promoting them to “Quality images” and “Featured pictures”! Regarding my discussed edits I have applied to these categories the rule of COM:OVERCAT, nothing more! But taking into account your contributions by photos of Bulgaria I'm inclined to make an exception about your over-categorization. Have a nice day! --Elkost (talk) 11:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

So kind of you. There are no such rules like OVERCAT for hidden user categories. Is it so hard to understand? The only way to know how many pictures at all I've uploaded is using Images by User:Poco a poco Poco a poco (talk) 07:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Poco a poco. Dear colleague, escaping of over-categorization is made in order to facilitate searching of files (and subcategories) and also to decrease the burden of redundant categories. To my regret your files have plenty of needless categories. For example, if a file is categorized in “Cat.:Images of Bulgaria by User:Poco a poco”, then “Cat.:Images by User:Poco a poco” is absolutely needless – both for visitors and for you. --Elkost (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)--Elkost (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I understand that you are using the most common “Cat.:Images by User:Poco a poco” in order not to count / calculate the number of your images. If so, then to this category should be added only most specific category/-ies, without additional categories between them (from the category tree of the file). --Elkost (talk) 09:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

OVERCAT is bad, and believe me, I agree on that as it difficults navigation for viewers when using categories. Here we talk about user categories and the one and only viewer for them is ME and nobody else, the rest of the world, including you, should not care about them. Thank you. --Poco a poco (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Pakistan

Hello,

There was a beach or two that were in the wrong province which I tried to fix. Also a few other things. Hope I didn't mess up. There are still many wrongly categorized images. Hope you can fix those. Best, Krok6kola (talk) 18:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I continue to fix them at opportunity. --Elkost (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I wish you had not stopped the progress being made on the Pakistan categories. There was an IP that for several weeks or longer has been really doing a hero's job finding the towns, lakes and rivers and others but has stopped since you put the "by administrative" categories in. Doing that makes further progress too hard. Too bad. Auntof6 did that to "Beaches of Sri Lanka" and that stopped all progress there. Well, the world is not perfect. I will move on. Best, Krok6kola (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I am very mixed up about the categories of Pakistan now. How can Education, Politics and Sports be clustered together under "Activities"? Ir is impossible to find the usual categories now. I will have to fix it so that I can find the images I like and knew how to find before. And those horrible big blue templates are so ugly. It seems like you don't care about Pakistan and the individuality of the different areas of Pakistan because you threw them all together. I am guessing that you don't like Pakistan very much. It is very painful to see what you have done. I have to try and clean it up and put images that refer to individual places or types together in the categories in which they belong. At least Auntof6 stopped when they saw the unhappiness causes. Auntof6 has empathy and reverses their edits when others are upset. Do you not want to treat your fellow editors rather better than the job you did on Pakistan, after all the careful work we put in. I don't understand your thinking. It seems you have no feelings or consideration for Pakistan and for the editors that have been working for many years there. Krok6kola (talk) 03:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Dear colleague, as the Russian Soviet poet Rasul Gamzatov had said, “I like all peoples very musch”. Towards Pakistan I feel a special interest and respect because some historians insist that the proto-Bulgarians / Bulgars (our predecessors) had come before 13 centuries to Europe from their previous country, called Bactria, situated then in Hunza Valley (today in North Pakistan).

Here, in Wikimedia, I use my time mainly to arrange files about Bulgaria – my native and homeland, and some files about other countries. So, I have contributed a lot to organize files about Bulgaria, Pakistan and other countries – by fixing of files and categorizing them mainly by location (country, subdivision, city) and by subject.

I don't like, too, the useless categories “Activites” and the big blue templates with flags in categories by countries (I prefer the previous grey template with small letters) and I never use them. It's easy to find and ask the people who have created and applied the “Activites” and the new template. All the best! --Elkost (talk) 12:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Elkost, I can only wish you much patience with this anonymous user "Krok6kola" aka "Kalbbes". I full support you, whatever you do in categories, be it on Pakistan, Bulgaria, Russia or elsewhere.

And in case you are not aware, here just the most recent sample of category vandalism by this user: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Any discussion with them is useless; you may read my attempts to address the issues on User:A.Savin/Archive/2020 (scroll to bottom). They also insulted Colin, one of Commons' prolific contributors, just because he was critical towards them, without even having had any opinion on categories. In short, in my almost 15 years on Commons, never seen an other user with such combination of incompetence and toxicity (maybe except the WMF banned INeverCry). It is always useful to know who do you have to do with; I hope you do now. Thanks --A.Savin 14:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the vandalism goes on: [7], [8]. --A.Savin 23:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

This guy A.Savin has followed me around for a long time and reverts my edits. I notice you thanked him for doing so. He just reverted some I made in Alaska. I will tell you that when he reported me to Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems, the others admins wanted to remove him as an Admin. In any case, they made it clear that he is not allowed to block me. No one else has ever wanted to. I am sorry that he spoiled my relationship with you. Add I am sorry that you take him seriously. I have over 420,000 edits since 2015 here and I have never had any trouble with any other Admins (or anyone else for that matter). Best, Krok6kola (talk) 00:06, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Elkost, in case you detect that any single one of my edits on categories is wrong, feel free to let me know and even if I disagree we surely can discuss in a civilized manner. The rest of this "conversation", I think, we can forget as rubbish, playing innocent victim and sort of "all are ghostdrivers except myself". I have no illusion anymore regarding this account "Krok6kola" aka "Kalbbes", alas. --A.Savin 00:35, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Advice about keys

I don't think removing keys in categories like [[Category:Dams| Type]] (making it [[Category:Dams| ]]) is a good idea, like you did it here: [9][10][11]. Take a look at Category:Dams right now, you'll see all "by" categories under perfect alphabetical order (continent‎, country, date of completion‎, material‎, name‎, river‎, type‎) because I restored keys. When you remove it, alphabetical order gets deformed, and reason is that templates By country category and By continent category automatically produce [[Category:Dams| Country]] and [[Category:Dams| Continent]] respectively, thus those two will appear at the bottom of alphabetical order (means it would be deformed: date of completion‎, material‎, name‎, river‎, type, continent‎, country‎). --Orijentolog (talk) 19:04, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Again the same story, but with shops. If category is named as Category:Shops by country, then it is logical that categories named Shops by country by X should be on top, while categories Shops by X by country are of secondary importance, thus go below it. Keys like " >" " <" have purpose so please don't remove it, otherwise alphabetical order is deformed. --Orijentolog (talk) 10:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The alphabetic order in categorization at the top is perfect without any signs (including „>“ and „<“). So, please, do not use them any more in such cases! --Elkost (talk) 10:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Nope, it would start by a secondary category (Shops by X by country), than continue with primary categories (Shops by country by X), and finally end with secondary categories. Such system is used only when there's a lot of "by-by" categories, see for example Category:Bridges by type and other bridge-related categories. In several cases when there's only one "by-by", and you cleaned it, that's completely fine. --Orijentolog (talk) 10:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Two more things. It's not kind of obligation or rule, it is used rarely, as I said, and trust me when I say that it can be helpful. So it's better to keep it where it exists. I've learnt it from one German guy who made an amazing job with bridges. Second thing, please don't consider my comments as neither objections nor lessons, you're a great editor who made x5 more job than me and you have my complete respect. No more Balkans wars. :) --Orijentolog (talk) 10:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Look above at “Sorting keys” section of this page to understand what I mean. --Elkost (talk) 10:55, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I see, and it actually proves my point that there are differences. Regarding sorting, I personally use "+" more than "*" because I see it as visually stronger, but I always check other related categories because it's not good idea to change system (i.e. to have one "+" and ten "*"). Different topics use different sortkeys and I'm fine with it, better not to make black sheeps. Sometimes we make it unintentionally, like you did here: you put sortkey and turned cats upside down, making an exception comparing to numerous of other Iran-related categories, but you can not know that thousands of other cats use different and standardized up-down order, as well as that other cities don't have sortkey. So I just restored original, without objecting.

Above discussion with Themightyquill does not speak about particular problem here (sorting "primary" and "secondary" subtypes), only about sorting it both (all cats defined by 2 criteria) in space section, and both of us have such practice. But IMHO, I prefer division in that (space) area to primary and secondary subtypes. For example, if I jump into category Category:Bridges by country, on top of it there are nine primary cats, and below there are 17 secondary cats. If we remove that "<" and ">", it would be messy. --Orijentolog (talk) 11:52, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@Orijentolog: Thank you! Krok6kola (talk) 12:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Category:Bridges by date

I noticed that you have contributed well over 400,000 edits whilst on Wikipedia Commons, so I think you should be able to do better than less experienced editors. I removed your edit here because it violates COM:OVERCAT.--Kai3952 (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Kai3952 Hi! Very rarely I leave such overcats, just hoping to facilitate searching. Anyway, I do not mind your revert. Have a nice evening! --Elkost (talk) 16:15, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

If so, why do we need to enact COM:OVERCAT to ensure that users can not to over-categorize file or category page?--Kai3952 (talk) 16:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

User talk:Elkost/Archive8

Contents

Nandi

Category:Tourism_by_city_by_country

Sorting keys

Category:Calderstones Park gate

Random category edits

Pakistan

Categories

Advice about keys

Category:Bridges by date

Navigation menu

User talk:Elkost/Archive8

Nandi

Category:Tourism_by_city_by_country

Sorting keys

Category:Calderstones Park gate

Random category edits

Pakistan

Categories

Advice about keys

Category:Bridges by date

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