Commons talk:WikiProject Arts/Manual of Style/Categories

Cats...in country /Ortsbezeichnung

Hallo Mattes,

I'm missing categories...in country

is it e.g. Santa Maria (Rome) Santa Maria, Rome Santa Maria in Rome

is this possible Category:Adam and Eve by Lucas Cranach the Elder in the Národní galerie v Praze Grüße--Oursana (talk) 19:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

yes sure. I'll work on the topic (explaining the root cat.) --Mateus2019 (talk) 18:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Series of artwork

Auch ein Formulierungsvorschlag ist: Paintings of Eleanor of Toledo with her son Giovanni de' Medici by Angelo Bronzino, dann ist schon aus der Überschrift klar, dass es mehrere sind.--Oursana (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

ja, auch gut --Mattes (talk) 05:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Piece of art categories

2. Category:The Four Evangelists (Frans Hals): include Category:Paintings of Saint Matthew + nächstes Beispiel verstehe ich leider nicht.--Oursana (talk) 09:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Categories for individual works of art

I cannot find a clear format here for the category name for individual works of art. Looking around, I see all different formats in use. It seems relatively agreed that the work's name alone is insufficient, and that all individual works categories should include additional information to specify exactly which work is covered. I should think a relatively simple format that is compatible with normal dab format in Commons categories should work pretty well:

"Category:<Work Name> (<medium> by <Artist Name>)"

This can be expanded if need be, for example if the same artist makes two works by the same name, we can add a year (or maybe some other applicable dab info):

"Category:<Work Name> (<year> <medium> by <Artist Name>)"

In cases where a work is part of a museum collection, or sub-categories of a work specific to its inclusion in one, we can add the museum and possibly identifier:

"Category:<Work Name> (<medium> by <Artist Name>) in <museum/collection> (<ID/code>)"

Having a basic guideline like this would be very helpful to a lot of users, especially when reviewing COM:CfD proposals. Josh (talk) 13:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Oursana, DenghiùComm, Themightyquill, Riley Huntley, Léna, and JopkeB: (pinging recent participants in discussions related to this issue) Josh (talk) 13:10, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Josh, for starting this discussion and pinging me. My thoughts:

• Keep category names as short as possible. For me additions like (<year> <medium> by <Artist Name> in <museum/collection>) and so on, are only necessary if there might be confusion, for instance:
  • If there are two or more works with the same name.
  • If there might be a category name for a topic with the same name.

So I agree that the work's name alone might be insufficient. Perhaps medium, artist name, year and/or museum/collection (in this order) should then be included, but as less as possible. And I think the spelling should be discussed: always every word starting with a capital, or not small words like prepositions and articles?

Note: All of these additions should though always (also) be added in the category description and in the parent categories.

 Question Where was I involved in a discussion related to this issue? I could not find any, though I vaguely remember one. JopkeB (talk) 11:47, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

@JopkeB, I think the CfD I saw your name in was Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/10/Category:Beach at Scheveningen in Calm Weather, maybe others but not sure. I was initially of the same mind about not including any dab info in cases where the title was unique on Commons, however I am also aware of how ship names are done, in which all ships get at least a basic dab, even when the name is unique. Personally, I am fine with either way...I just came here to see if WP Arts had reached any consensus, but it appears there is none yet published. I'd like to see at least a basic guideline so users and CfD participants aren't left re-inventing the wheel for each work of art. Josh (talk) 13:19, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Josh, for the link. I see my opinion in that discussion was less strict than here. That discussion was never closed. So when we come here to a conclusion, we can apply it there as well. Yes, I agree: the main focus is to get at least a basic guideline. I hope the others will give their opinions as well, strict or not.

And I see there that there is another  Question: With or without quotes in the category title (" ")? JopkeB (talk) 16:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

No quotes would be best. When the dab info is in standard parenthesis (), it is more than clear which portion of the name is the title of the work, so I don't think "" in addition are needed. Josh (talk) 01:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion the category name must contain at least the artworks title and the artist. The title of an artworks sometimes differs from institutions (owner or on loan) or in exhibitions, so the artist's name is necessary to describe the artwork. Concerning artworks it is not only the title people are looking for, our users are looking for artworks of a certain artist, whereas the exact title is not known or not so important. This is a very important reason to individualize the artwork. Therefore together with the correct naming of an artwork's category it is necessary to create categories only if it is necessary Commons:categories. Creating a category for an artwork must be the exception, not automatically for every file or artwork. A bigger context is needed, otherwise you have to open lots of categories to find an artwork. But when you create a category for an artwork the artwork must be findable for the users and for this the addition of the artist is necessary and therefore commons praxis in the arts.

see subcats of Portrait paintings of women by Lucas Cranach (I), 19th-century portrait paintings in the Nasjonalmuseet for kunst, arkitektur og design, which all contain the artist's name. In 16th-century oil portraits of standing men at half length 32 of the 33 subcategories contain the artist's name.

This is Portrait of Andrea Doria as Neptune with the subcategory Portrait of Andrea Doria as Neptune (Genoa). Rainbows in 19th-century paintings has 2 categories out of 12 without artist's name, which the users would like to know. If you demand no additional information for unique titles, you first have the problem with the flexible titles and who should know about the uniqueness of a title. This criterium of WP cannot be applicable for the numerous artworks.Oursana (talk) 23:22, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oursana: You want to create only a category for an art work if it is strictly necessary, because people/end users more often know the name of the artist than the exact title of the art work; [my addition, I think you implicitly mean this too:] especially when category names are in English, and end users can find an art work better when files of the art works are together in one artist category then in a lot of small seperate categories. I agree with you that categories should only be made if they are needed and there are enough files and/or subcategories for (and not, for instance, what I see a lot, when there is a Wikidata item and a EN-WP page for). But a gallery page with all the art works of an artist can also do the trick of finding art works more easily, and in my opinion even better. Therefor I did not include this in my proposal below.--JopkeB (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way: Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/10/Category:Beach at Scheveningen in Calm Weather has already been solved.--JopkeB (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal

1. Criteria:
   1. Category names should be as short as possible.
      1. The minimum would be: Category:<Work Name> (<Artist Name>)
   2. Add more information to the category name if there might be confusion.
      1. Then we might get at the most: Category:<Work Name> (<year> <medium> by <Artist Name>) in <museum/collection> (<ID/code>)
      2. Add only as much information as needed to make the category name unique: medium, year, museum/collection and/or ID/code, and in this order.
2. The title should be without quotes (" ").
3. Implementation:
   1. From the day we agree upon this proposal (or this one adjusted, or another proposal), this will be the format for new categories for individual works of art.
      1.  Question How do we communicate this to the other editors? (I often think that Commons needs a bulletin board for this kind of messages).
      2.  Question How can this new "rule" be included in the manual, policies and/or guidelines? What should be done?
   2. We will not adjust (yet) all the many (thousands?) existing category names for individual works of art to this format.

@Joshbaumgartner and Oursana: Do you agree? --JopkeB (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be nice if we had a real category naming guideline/policy page instead of just the old failed proposal for one. There is a place on Commons category policies  where specific guidelines for specific topics can be added, so I guess that would be a good place to add some language once it is clearly agreed to as a consensus. As for communication beyond putting it in the policy, other than starting to point to that policy page whenever the issue comes up I'm not sure what can be done. I have created a proposal page at Commons:Categories/Works of art and discussion at Commons talk:Categories/Works of art#New proposal. Josh (talk) 02:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The artist's name is always obligatory for me,

see e.g. this terribly named subcats Paintings by Bernardo Bellotto in the Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister (Dresden)

Oursana (talk) 16:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, the work title and artist name should be the minimum. Even where they are unknown, 'untitled' and 'anonymous' or 'unidentified artist' should be used to indicate that. Josh (talk) 02:31, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

---

The results of this discussion have been included in Commons:Categories/Works of art. Therefor this discussion will be continued on Commons talk:Categories/Works of art. --JopkeB (talk) 13:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)