Category talk:Heraldic mantles and pavilions

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Heraldic mantling

As we can see Category Heraldic mantling sorts an "Heraldic Manteau" (= de:Wappenmantel) not en:Mantling = en:Lambrequin which sorts in Category:Heraldic lambrequins. So I strong propose to rename Category:Heraldic mantling (from the very unclear “”English) to the sometimes heraldic prefered language French: Category:Heraldic Manteau «Category:Heraldic manteaux»⁈ ↔ User:Perhelion (Commons: = crap?) 17:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: I see no reason why the French should be any more understandable than German or Spanish or Italian. Mantling is derived from the same root as manteau, mantel and mantilla, the Latin mantellum. English is chosen as the most universal language. Besides, "Heraldic manteau" is a mish-mash of English (first word) and French (second word). It seems Category:Heraldic lambrequins should be merged into Category:Heraldic mantling. DrKiernan (talk) 20:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

  Hello DrKiernan, thanks for your opinion. But I must disagree both (and I can't estimate your Heraldic knowhow), in other languages manteau and lambrequin is something different and as we see it is or was in English too: en:Talk:Mantling#Not the same thing!. French is an heraldic language, it don't matter if the specialized term and the specification name is a different language, if you would know something about heraldic you would know that many “English” terms are from French. ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  22:19, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

  Boutell's Heraldry[1][2], for example, makes no distinction between mantling and lambrequin. Looking at google searches, it seems mantling is the usual term; lambrequin is more often used in interior decoration. Perhaps you should be suggesting two categories: one for manteaux and one for lambrequins, which are both contained within a super-category mantling. DrKiernan (talk) 09:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

  That would be a compromise, I could agree. What means other (@OSeveno and Kiltpin: ) here⁉ ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  19:35, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

  One last thing then, I think the new category should be named Category:Heraldic manteaux, with a small letter m and in plural, matching the small letter l and the plural form in the sister category Heraldic lambrequins. DrKiernan (talk) 08:58, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

  Yes you are right, thank you very much. If no one has a better solution (some other people are also pinged) we can start this next week. ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  12:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

  Support. Changing now to explicit support per the discussion below. Even if "manteaux" is a less-used synonym (in English) for "mantles", "pavilions" and "robes of estate", it is still a more correct term for these files than "mantling". It is better to use a less-well-known name than a wrong one. DrKiernan (talk) 12:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support: As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be a discussion about which languages one prefers or comprehends better. In many countries the French terminology for heraldry is the standard in which coat of arms are described. My own native tongue being English nor French, I prefer the French terminology. Even so when I take in account that my comprehension of English is far better than that of French. Should the outcome of this discussion be that the English terminology is favored then I won't object to that either. It is true that Commons Wikimedia is mostly in English. Regards, --OSeveno (talk) 23:59, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

  Thanks also, yes of curse, English is prefered, but in some special cases it has proven to take French if no concrete English term exists (e.g. Category:Attributs héraldiques). ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  02:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Thats the reason why I support the proposal. --OSeveno (talk) 18:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: Hello All. No English speaker is going to understand what "manteau" is and is likely going to mistake it for a pavillion, which is, of course, something totally different. As what we are talking about is paper heraldry and not real heraldry, I would support the merger of lambreqins into mantling. Although they are different things, the term mantling is slowly taking over, even amongst the heraldic authorities. Kiltpin (talk) 13:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You say: “the term mantling is slowly taking over, even amongst the heraldic authorities”. To which “heraldic authorities” are you referring ? On which facts do you base that ? Regards, --OSeveno (talk) 16:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello, OSeveno. I think the best is an example. This is from the College of Arms' own website – http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/granting-arms If you scroll down to "The Design of the Arms", underneath is a grey graphic of their own arms and clearly labelled is mantling. Kiltpin (talk) 18:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

But none of the files in Category:Heraldic mantling show mantling.

I think I understand now: the files in Category:Heraldic mantling actually show what would be called mantles, pavilions and robes of estates in English and Scottish heraldry. The files actually showing mantling are in Category:Heraldic lambrequins. Hence, Category:Heraldic mantling is misnamed. Lambrequins and mantling should be in the same category and one of those names should be chosen as the name of the category, with the other name serving as a redirect. All the files currently in Category:Heraldic mantling should be moved to a new category, which if named in English would be called "Heraldic mantles", or "Heraldic pavilions" or "Robes of estate in heraldry". Whatever new name is chosen, I now believe Perhelion is right to say that the current category name is wrong. DrKiernan (talk) 21:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Note these pages – scroll down to section 2.2.5. Mantles, Robes of Estate, and Pavilions and look at "MANTLING" and "MANTLE AND PAVILION": they explain the difference beween mantling (lambrequin) and mantle (manteau). DrKiernan (talk) 21:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• I'm changing my position: I am now supporting renaming in favor of the English language, using the word “mantling”. --OSeveno (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

  Ok thanks all for more clarification (another existing term and a big misunderstanding of everyone here in current categorisation) because the English Wikipedia has a huge gap of information here: en:Pavilion (disambiguation) and en:Mantle (has no mentioning, only a incidental word under tincture).

  So the question is Pavilions or Mantles⁇ And rename lambrequins → mantling and mantling → pavilions? ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  00:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

  @Kiltpin: Thanks for coming to this discussion, but a small disagree to your statement: In French a "manteau" seems to be a "pavilion" or I'm sorry for misunderstanding English grammar here.

  • • PS: As the source – given by DrKiernan – says: "they are known as mantles (or manteaux), robes of estate, or pavilions. None of these accoutrements has any place in American heraldic custom." So we are also absolutely not wrong to take this name. I really don't like the term/name "mantle" because to be confused with mantling, as also both given good heraldic sources had to explicit explain this confusing risk (for native English speaking people, because of consequence of amateurish heraldic, which we do should not support here, sorry). ↔ User: Perhelion (Commons: = crap?)  00:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks for clarifying things. I seem to have been confused about what we where talking about. So it seems we are actually talking about two renames: lambrequins → mantling or coverings and mantling → pavilions or baldachins. I added coverings and baldachins as options. Coverings was already mentioned before, baldachins I added because it is the historic term which doesn't leave much room for confusion. IMPORTANT: We should remember that a coat of arms may include BOTH a lambrequin/mantling AND a pavillion/baldachin. See: File:Grand_Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_France_&_Navarre.svg as an example. So I think lambrequins/mantlings and pavillions/baldachins possibly should be on the same level below an other master Category. They're equals in that sense. A name for such a master category I don't have just yet. Perhaps you could agree both a baldachin and a mantle are kinds of “coverings” (a more general term), so then we could name the master category Coverings. As far as I'm concerned (at this time) I think most important is that the names used are as recognizable as possible to Commons Wikimedia users. There may be a (relatively) small heraldry community active but Commons should be as accessible as (reasonably) possible to anyone. Mantling or Coverings would be the best term for lambrequins. On the Category page there should be a small explanation about what mantling is. And this should be with a LangSwitch (in different languages), so as many as possible users will understand. I'm willing to contribute text in some languages. Changing 'mantling → pavilions or baldachin' if we agree on that would also be including an explanation about what that category should include. My new proposal: (1) Create a master category called “coverings” and make that a CatCat or MetaCat so it shouldn't include individual files, only other categories. Post text in it explaining this, using LangSwitch. (2) Rename mantlings → “baldachins” (or pavillions) and (3) rename lambrequins → “mantlings”. Post text in them explaining what they should contain, using LangSwitch. Both categories “baldachins” and “mantlings” should contain only sub-categories according to tinctures/colors. (CatCat or MetaCat) That way their structures will be equal to each other. Post text in both of them explaining what they should contain, using LangSwitch. Regards, --OSeveno (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
      • - Ofcourse, category names should have the word “heraldic” in their name. --OSeveno (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

 Agree with changing "Heraldic mantling" to the correct name.

Tending to  Disagree with changing "Heraldic lambrequins" to "Heraldic mantling", since:

• Apparently there's no doubt both designations are correct;
• It has been argued that new trends favor "mantling", which is not a good argument for such a change;
• Mantling is too close to "mantle" and "manteaux", and favors confusion.

-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 20:31, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• • - and how about the option of “heraldic baldachins” or “heraldic pavillions” ? --OSeveno (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

@Perhelion, DrKiernan, OSeveno, Kiltpin, and DarwIn: Any chance this has been resolved over the past 6 years, so that we can close discussion? - Themightyquill (talk) 18:34, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Themightyquill: Not the least idea... Maybe close it and leave it as it is?-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 18:48, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Themightyquill: I agree. No change was agreed upon and the discussion faded out. --oSeveno (User talk) 10:47, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

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Stale discussion. Closing without change. -- Themightyquill (talk) 07:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)