Category talk:Vehicles of Germany

I support the move from "Vehicles of" to "Vehicles built in". Orrlingtalk 21:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• oppose, as others. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

  Do you mean Vehicles built in France‎, Vehicles built in Spain‎, Vehicles built in Turkey‎, Vehicles built in Ukraine‎, Vehicles built in India‎, Vehicles built in the Czech Republic‎? Or here and here? --ŠJů (talk) 00:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The page where comments on the proposed pattern appear to assemble is Category talk:Vehicles of the United States, It's suggested that the discussion further be maintained there. Regardz, Orrlingtalk 05:14, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

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The move request for this category is concluded with 2 suppoting (the undersigned + the requester) vs 1 opposing user, and is thus forwarded to the Bot to complete the move task. Orrlingtalk 04:30, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, not all of the vehicles in this cat are built in Germany, but they are of German companies. Liamdavies (talk) 05:35, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

 Oppose as Andy Dingley and Liam Davies.--红龙 (talk) 04:08, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

@Orrling: 2 supporting votes??? I count only one; so where is the undersigned support vote you seem to see here???--红龙 (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you got an incorrect image of how it actually is: the requester is one editor, I was the second; signing here or not, the requester is quite obviously counted as a supporter... :) - During a 9 months time there's only been a single "opposer" here altogether, and I'm glad that now that this entry was with full merit forwarded to be fulfilled you discovered it. We work with some order here. Orrlingtalk 01:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Rename proposal: Merge with Vehicle manufacturers of Germany

Kill ambiguousity. "Vehicles of" says nothing. Content of this cat can and should be sorted into on-the-mark parents, it is otherwise inevitably confused with "Vehicles in Germany" and "Vehicle manufacturers of Germany", and is all about only a mess. It's avoidable. The title "Vehicles of" has no helpful potential, it cuold be a disambiguation page or a redirect. Orrlingtalk 23:52, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

 Oppose, vehicles are not manufacturers. Category "Vehicle manufacturers of Germany" can cover factories, managers and workers, logos and documents etc. It cannot be confused with a category of vehicles manufactured in Germany. The previous proposal ("Vehicles built in Germany" is better. However, "Vehicles built in Germany" should by a subcategory of "Vehicles of Germany" (vehicles operated or owned by German people or organizations or registered in Germany are also "Vehicles of Germany"). --ŠJů (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

No, as clarified, "Vehicles of xxx" will disappear, it was specified here clearly enough that "Vehicles of" being too ambiguous is unworkable and there's no need to pretend like it's not explained in multiple venues - the only debate is on which category name will succeed "Vehicles of". The "registration" concept for vehicles has been declined, quite enough long ago already, no need to pretend like it's still on the agenda, it's totally superfluous and no one needs it on Commons. As for "Vehicles built in xxx" as a successor or "Vehicles of", since two more voices have lately joined with an objection one needs to find another alternative and "Vehicle manufacturers of XXX" seems the one that probably absorbs fairly most of the items of "Vehicles of xxx" Orrlingtalk 00:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The categories "Vehicles of..." can be root categories for all types of relations by country: "Vehicles (photographed, operated, occured) in...", "Vehicles built in...", "Vehicles registered in..." or "Vehicles owned (operated) by owners/operators from....". For some types of vehicles or subcategories, more such categories can blend together ("Vehicles of..." is the most appropriate name for such universal categories – such name enables to unite "by country of occurence" with "by home country" criteria when it is unsuitable and unreasoned to distunguish them). Categorization of vehicles by registration country was surely not declined generally – for some types of vehicles (aircraft, bus coaches, rolling stock, sea watercraft etc.), the home country is surely more relevant than the country of accidental occurence of the vehicle. Category:Vehicles built in Germany should be a subcategory of "Vehicles of Germany". Manufacturers are not vehicles, the category of manufacturers should be not a subcategory of the category of vehicles. Create a subcategory "Vehicles of Germany by manufacturer" or "Vehicles built in Germany by manufacturer" for categorizing of vehicles by manufacturer and manufacturing country. See also Category talk:Vehicles by country for previous discussions. --ŠJů (talk) 18:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I might need to refer you here, where it's been articulated some 3 months ago, without contestants, that the Vehicles in Countryname is the category most preferable as the head-cat for any vehicle-association-by-country, and it's no other that the discussion over there was headed by the mission of discarding the ambiguous "Vehicles of" format. Ambiguousity is no longer needed here. This is why it's been added that the "Vehicles of Xxx" can be turned as redirects to the respective "Vehicles in", as has gradually and long been done, for example here. This is the most right and most basic thing to agree on, that we don't need both separate formats. However, it's OK for me if decided to rather make "Vehicles of" the main cat for each country and then redirect the "Vehicles in" at it. So far, the currency is the opposite, and it's been agreed elsewhere that we dismantle the "Vehicles of" cats and move most of their content to "Vehicles built in X". Evidently for the Germany case this has been, unfortunately, opposed (three times vs two supports), which makes you need to convince the objectors about the move, not me. In any case the "Vehicles of Germany" will have to go one way or another... Orrlingtalk 19:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

This problem is long-standing for all levels of vehicle categories. Generally, some types of vehicles (as trams, metro, fire engines, funiculars cabs, ferry boats, river ships etc.) are bound with their operation area and "of" falls mostly together with "in". However, for some types of vehicles, categorization by operator and by home country is more relevant than categorization by the accidental occurence. That's why it is problematic to have "in" categories as the top level of the categorization of vehicles by country. That was discussed and analysed manytimes - you should make no overvalued conclusions from the fact that your opinion at the discussion page of one of hunderds and thousands affected subcategories was not noticed and commented immediatelly (but the problems were thoroughly discussed in 2010 and 2011 at more suitable page). Category talk:Vehicles by country is better place for the general discussion. If you have some new idea or proposal now, better than all the previous, you can revive the discussion.

You are right, the names with "of" are unspecific, more general. That's why they are suitable to be used as a parent category for more special and more specific subcategories. Removing of "of" categories and redirecting to "in" categories is very problematic and causes problems with subcategories of vehicles by home country (by registration, by operator, by owner), especially regarding to photos taken outside the home country of the vehicle. However, the preposition "of" is also not quite universal. It's no easy to decide and solve definitively. However, to remove all "of" categories is not the wonder cure.

Anyway, we can reach a consensus that maximum of the content from the "of" categories should be sorted and moved to "in" and "built in" subcategories as appropriate and the "built in" tree should be systematically created and filled. Germany is somewhat cleaned now. --ŠJů (talk) 00:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

It's good that the Germany tree was sorted, but the "of" category is still right here, with an unchanged inherent ambiguousity altogether. The discussion you're referring to (Category talk:Vehicles by country) is very long and, more importantly, is old enough to make it outdated – with last topical comment recorded two and a half years ago! The requests of moving "Vehicles of" to "Vehicles built in", which are handled here, are much newer (evidently, the move requests were posted after that discussion shut down, so we deal with them, not with other stuff). Your reasoning for preferring the "of" format as the top cat for each country rather than the "in" is fine for me, and has my full accord in the terms that this is made universally, and that we conclude that the "in" cats are only for country of depiction/location. So we need just agree to embrace the "of" format and not head to old mega-discussions just for it. If you can work out now all the "Vehicles of" cats that have or had the move-tag and diffuse them into respective "Vehicles built in" subs you'll have my thanks. Probably, any countries which don't manufacture vehicles, should have their Vehicles-of-X cats with only one single subcat – "Vehicles in X", that is, the objects depicted in that country. Countries that produce vehicles, shall have additionally both "Vehicle manufacturers of X" and "Vehicles built in X" as subcats, to accomplish the consistent line. "Operator", "Registration" and all those other ideas you've mentioned other than manufacturing and depiction are not interesting in that top-level, I think. - The immediate content under each country's head-category needs to be only the vehicles-produced-in and the vehicles-located-in that country. Orrlingtalk 02:21, 7 January 2014 (UTC)