Category talk:Swansea
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[edit]Suggest splitting to Category:City and County of Swansea or Category:Swansea County Borough, even some communities like Category:Llanddeiniolen (community) has been done. Swansea CB (along with Newport and Cardiff) contains a much larger area than the settlement its self. @Sionk: , @Skinsmoke: , @Nilfanion: @Rodhullandemu: who have been involved in similar cases. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:23, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Oppose Officially known as the "City and County of Swansea", fine, but that's a distinction really only pedants are likely to care about. Most people know what is meant by "Swansea" and won't appreciate having to go through a redirect to get to the "correct" name. Rodhullandemu (talk) 12:43, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Are you opposing to the split or just the target, would the alternative Category:Swansea County Borough or even Category:Swansea (county borough) do? Note also Category:Merthyr Tydfil was also split. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Both. If the city and county (borough) are coterminous, I don't think we need to make a distinction. Merthyr is different because it is a town within the principal area of the same name, which happens to be a county borough and contains other settlements. Rodhullandemu (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see how they are coterminous, Gorseinon is also a separate town and places like Category:Worms Head are a long way away from the settlement. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:11, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Both. If the city and county (borough) are coterminous, I don't think we need to make a distinction. Merthyr is different because it is a town within the principal area of the same name, which happens to be a county borough and contains other settlements. Rodhullandemu (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Are you opposing to the split or just the target, would the alternative Category:Swansea County Borough or even Category:Swansea (county borough) do? Note also Category:Merthyr Tydfil was also split. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Will cause more problems than it solves.--Nilfanion (talk) 14:50, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- But we have already done this with most districts in England and even some communities. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:09, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't an argument for (or against) anything. What is true is every time we split an urban area from the local government district, we cause difficulties. It forces unnatural titles to disambiguate and makes people go through an unhelpful dab when they do not care about the distinction. That means it should only be done if there's a real benefit from doing so.
- In this particular case: To anyone who has heard of it "Swansea" is a city in south Wales. Those with who know the local geography probably consider the Gower to be close to Swansea, but not in the city itself. But the Gower is part of the legal city of Swansea. The practical city (ie the built-up area) doesn't have a legal existence. A split just means the contradictions of British local government get in the way of the actual use of Commons. TL;DR: "Will cause more problems than it solves".--Nilfanion (talk) 19:28, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- But we have already done this with most districts in England and even some communities. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:09, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment I agree with the sentiment of Crouch (I think) though I'm not sure of the methodology. City and County of Swansea is the unitary authority name, but I find it quite confusing and difficult to navigate the subcategories because Swansea itself does not have a category. No one in their right mind would consider the Gower to be a city, or part of a city! It's another of those bizarre and disconcerting results of Wales' post-1996 unitary authorities. But, if there is no current legal entity defining the city of Swansea, where would the city begin and end? Sionk (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- There is a current legal entity defining the city of Swansea: Its the entire area covered by Swansea Council (ie including the Gower). What we don't have is a separate legal entity which covers the urban area which is what most people think of as Swansea. No-one in their right mind would think of the Gower as part of a city, but that's precisely what it is for government purposes. Like the problems in England, this doesn't date from the 90s but the 70s (as that is when Gower was merged into Swansea).--Nilfanion (talk) 22:11, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
- Whether we have a legal entity or not, there is certainly an identity. If I visit Rhossili I'm not visiting the city of Swansea (which as you suggest, means the urban area to most people). However, in the absence of a definition of Swansea's urban area it probably means we carry on with the current absence of a city. Sionk (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- This compared to this maybe? Yes there will inevitably be the problem of incorrect categorization (like with Bolton) for example but if this is not split it will definitely contain rural images. I am
Neutral on this at the moment. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nope the BUASD is not acceptable. One additional factor to consider is that it will force an unnatural category name for the urban area (you can't use (city) because it isn't the city), and people uploading images of the "wrong" Swansea may use the wrong category. Especially true in the sub-categories which are not policed. Leave it alone.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
- Category:Swansea County Borough surely would be better to match the others like Category:Bridgend County Borough, that is if a split happens. Wouldn't your statement "(city) won't help either, as the district not the settlement holds the status and that's asking for trouble in the future" suggest that you thought a split likely sometime, if that's not the case then that target would be appropriate. I would have started this of there but I didn't want to confuse the existing discussion. Britannica makes a distinction along with Newport and Cardiff. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:12, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- Swansea County Borough is not the name of the area, so it is utterly unsuitable (Swansea CB is an area that was abolished in the 70s). My comment at Newport is about the fact a split is possible not that it is likely, and it is best to future-proof against possibilities, not that I consider such a split desirable or inevitable. Its not there, its not here.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- Then use Category:Swansea (county borough). Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:32, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Well, no. Swansea was only a county borough between 1889 and 1973. To name it such would be to suggest that the category should contain only historical images relating to that status, e.g. coats of arms and old road signs. It is now officially a "City and County". We could use Swansea (principal area), which it is, but that would confuse users. When it comes to arguments over precision, I prefer the correct version, but I also accept that we are supposed to be providing a service to our users, whom we do not want to alienate by confusing them. Rodhullandemu (talk) 13:01, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes I forgot to take that into account. Yes "(principal area)" would be much better if there is consensus to split which I don't see here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Well, no. Swansea was only a county borough between 1889 and 1973. To name it such would be to suggest that the category should contain only historical images relating to that status, e.g. coats of arms and old road signs. It is now officially a "City and County". We could use Swansea (principal area), which it is, but that would confuse users. When it comes to arguments over precision, I prefer the correct version, but I also accept that we are supposed to be providing a service to our users, whom we do not want to alienate by confusing them. Rodhullandemu (talk) 13:01, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Then use Category:Swansea (county borough). Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:32, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Swansea County Borough is not the name of the area, so it is utterly unsuitable (Swansea CB is an area that was abolished in the 70s). My comment at Newport is about the fact a split is possible not that it is likely, and it is best to future-proof against possibilities, not that I consider such a split desirable or inevitable. Its not there, its not here.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- Category:Swansea County Borough surely would be better to match the others like Category:Bridgend County Borough, that is if a split happens. Wouldn't your statement "(city) won't help either, as the district not the settlement holds the status and that's asking for trouble in the future" suggest that you thought a split likely sometime, if that's not the case then that target would be appropriate. I would have started this of there but I didn't want to confuse the existing discussion. Britannica makes a distinction along with Newport and Cardiff. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:12, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nope the BUASD is not acceptable. One additional factor to consider is that it will force an unnatural category name for the urban area (you can't use (city) because it isn't the city), and people uploading images of the "wrong" Swansea may use the wrong category. Especially true in the sub-categories which are not policed. Leave it alone.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
- This compared to this maybe? Yes there will inevitably be the problem of incorrect categorization (like with Bolton) for example but if this is not split it will definitely contain rural images. I am
- Whether we have a legal entity or not, there is certainly an identity. If I visit Rhossili I'm not visiting the city of Swansea (which as you suggest, means the urban area to most people). However, in the absence of a definition of Swansea's urban area it probably means we carry on with the current absence of a city. Sionk (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- There is a current legal entity defining the city of Swansea: Its the entire area covered by Swansea Council (ie including the Gower). What we don't have is a separate legal entity which covers the urban area which is what most people think of as Swansea. No-one in their right mind would think of the Gower as part of a city, but that's precisely what it is for government purposes. Like the problems in England, this doesn't date from the 90s but the 70s (as that is when Gower was merged into Swansea).--Nilfanion (talk) 22:11, 8 December 2017 (UTC)