Category talk:Roads

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Streets named after Kyiv

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Move to Category:Roads and streets named Kyiv to match parent and peers. -- Themightyquill (talk) 07:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Themightyquill: Why are these categories named "roads and streets"? Isn't a street a type of road? Isn't this like the argument we had a while back to change "Buildings and structures" to just one or the other? The argument was that saying "buildings and structures" (and in this case, "roads and streets") is like saying "carrots and vegetables". --Auntof6 (talk) 07:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You might be right. I suspect the concern was that we end up with both (e.g. Category:Roads named after Kyiv and subcategory Category:Streets named after Kyiv with just one or two entries each? We do have Category:Streets by name but no Category:Roads by name for some reason. Category:Roads and streets dates back to 2013. -- Themightyquill (talk) 08:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Auntof6, since the category "Streets" accommodates address-forming objects and a "road" (as an address-forming object) is one of such objects. And if we consider a "road" not as an address-forming object then it will be "carrots and vegetables".--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:13, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • From Russian Wikipedia:
Category:Streets in Saint Petersburg
Category:Streets in Saint Petersburg by type
Category:Roads in Saint Petersburg

--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That should be the other way around. Streets should be under roads. -- Auntof6 (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Auntof6: it is correct because "road" means "doroga" (passage) here as the element of address (e.g. Torfyanaya Doroga). But the category should be named more accurate, e.g. Category:Dorogas in Saint Petersburg, in order to resolve ambiguity. --Александр Мотин (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Александр Мотин: Maybe so, but I think it should be decided according to the usual meaning of road and street here in Commons. If there is a different usage in Russia (or elsewhere), maybe the categories should be named with a transliteration of the terms from the relevant language (for example, "Dorogas in Saint Petersburg" instead of roads or streets). The usual Commons usage has nothing to do with whether the thing is used to form addresses; both roads and streets can have addresses. -- Auntof6 (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am okay with either roads under streets or streets under roads, but opposed to 'streets and roads'. Of course, this should be decided for roads/streets at large, not just for this particular category. Josh (talk) 11:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have tagged Category:Roads and streets with this CfD. I suggest we merge Category:Roads and streets into either Category:Roads or Category:Streets while the other of the two becomes a sub-category of the other. Josh (talk) 11:57, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good. I would merge it into roads, because I think we categorize streets under roads. -- Auntof6 (talk) 20:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Streets should be a sub-category of roads. In the United States history, there were "trails" that developed into "wilderness roads" or rural roads. Streets are predominantly urban. There were wilderness trails and rural roads, before urban areas with roads and streets. @Auntof6, @Joshbaumgartner, @Themightyquill, @Александр Мотин Ooligan (talk) 16:52, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Roads and streets has been merged to Roads. Overturned by Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2023/11#Roads_and_streets. "Dorogas" should be used for Saint Petersburg instead of "roads". --Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:39, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Roads and streets

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The previous CFD (Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/06/Category:Streets named after Kyiv) had a clear consensus to put Streets under Roads. However, XRay disputed my closure and opened a discussion at Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2023/11#Roads and streets, which overturned the consensus established by the previous CFD. Two months later, Joshbaumgartner tried to implement the previous CFD consensus and I have reverted most of them. Since XRay hadn't participated in the previous CFD and Joshbaumgartner hadn't participated in the village pump discussion, I'm pinging both here for inputs.​​ Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, Streets should come under Roads because the distinction between the two terms isn't always clear (see en:Street#Nomenclature) and both are used for road transport. It is not always easy to identify a road or street within a city by function (for instance, the Diamond Harbour Road between Kolkata and Diamond Harbour functions as a street within Kolkata, despite being part of a national highway). Also, the simplicity principle avoids combining too many different criteria. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see a clear consensus. IMO you should make a voting (after a discussion). --XRay 💬 08:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And please have a look to street (Q79007) and road (Q34442), both subclasses of road or street (Q123414165). --XRay 💬 08:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the lead sections of respective Wikipedia articles try to make distinctions between roads and streets, I see the pics of streets being used in the Road article. I also found streets (or "local roads") being described at Road hierarchy. road or street (Q123414165) is mine creation to integrate Roads and streets with other Wikipedia categories with similar names. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A street is a sub meaning of a road but a street will tend to have houses etc on it wile a road in general will go from one place to another and will often be more rural[1]. However I'm not sure the distinction is helpful as its often not going to be clear if a road is a road in general or can be classified as a street so I perhaps just keep "road" categories and merge "street" categories except maybe for "Streets in Anytown" etc. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see any consensus to do anything at Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2023/11#Roads and streets. Personally, I don't see roads as a subcategory of streets. -- Themightyquill (talk) 13:27, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Streets are a sub category of roads not the other way round. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: Either way. Where is the consensus in that discussion? -- Themightyquill (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That looks to be what the consensus was in the previous CFD but anyway that's what it is in the real world. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I firmly believe that streets should be a subcat of roads, and the category tree should be as follows (discarded in favour of a better category scheme):
Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 15:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have discarded the above proposal following Common's simplicity and modularity principles. The new proposal is as follows:
  • Roads — for all thoroughfares used by road vehicles.
    • Highways — for roads connecting major settlements.
    • Paths — for small roads used by smaller road vehicles and/or pedestrians.
      • Alleys — for narrow paths within settlements (cities, towns or villages).
      • Footpaths — for paths primarily used by pedestrians (also a subcategory of Walking infrastructure), although road vehicles like bicycles may use footpaths.
    • Streets — for roads within settlements (cities, towns or villages).
      • Alleys — for narrow streets used by smaller road vehicles and/or pedestrians.

--Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sbb1413: I agree in principle. But the scheme is incomplete. There are also many other types of roads/ways, e.g. forest roads, rural ways, dirt roads, which can be also count and categorized under "roads" (only "trails" do not fit there and are categorized directly under Category:Thoroughfares). In this sense, the word "roads" cover also streets, and the compound name "roads and streets" is needlessly complicated (although some paths or alleys can be streets but not roads). --ŠJů (talk) 02:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sbb1413, that looks really good to go with. Some of the exact definitions listed probably could be tweaked, but that's less important than a good structure, which I think this is. ŠJů is correct that it is incomplete and there are several pieces to be added here, but the key with Roads is that they are not just Thoroughfares used by road vehicles, but thoroughfares that involve some level of construction, even if it is as simple as basic leveling or providing a rudimentary surface. Thoroughfares created by little more than the beating of the traffic using them are Trails, and should not be included in this part of the tree. Josh (talk) 03:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As long as everyone is going to be okay with things called "(something) Street" end up in Category:Roads not Category:Streets because they don't fit the definition of street as a road within a settlement. Take a look at N78 Street, Oklahoma on Google Streetview to see a dirt road with no sidewalk, and nothing but farmland in sight. -- Themightyquill (talk) 21:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This category discussion has been closed.
Consensus Resolved by consensus
Actionsadopt basic structure as laid out in proposal
Participants
Closed by Josh (talk) 17:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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