Category talk:Panoramas by country

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Panoramics by country

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see also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/03/Category:Panoramic views of Kyiv, Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/03/Category:Panorama buildings and Category talk:Panoramas

Rename category to Category:Panoramas by country to match parent Category:Panoramas in compliance with the Universality Principle. Note that Category:Panoramics is a redirect to Category:Panoramas. This name change would apply to subcategories as well. Josh (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshbaumgartner, LBM1948, Ham II, Takeaway, Auntof6, Themightyquill, Xeror, Simisa, Sitacuisses, and Bubba73: Please notice some ambiguity in the naming and use of categories from this categorization branch. Many users use those categories in the broader sense of the word "panorama": as an umberella term for landscape and cityscaape outlooks, open views from mountains, towers or bridges, open remote or global views of cities, structures or landforms etc., as the equivalent of this word is understood in many languages. Another users try to promote the narrow terminological sense as a category for wide-angle images (from what angle? how to measure it?), or for narrow wide images (from what aspect ratio?), independently of their subject. In an effort to promote one of these concepts, users often distort the categorization in the other meaning, and vice versa. The solution would be to split this categorization tree into two with unambiguous, unmistakable names. The proposed renaming perhaps slightly shifts the meaning of the name (in the direction from that special meaning to the more general one - a panorama for the view itself, a panoramic for the picture) without solving the necessity of division. At the same time, it must be borne in mind that the division cannot be done quickly and once, but it would be a very long-term process that will probably never be utterly completed. Rather, it is about setting the direction in which the development of categorization should gradually move. Thus, it is necessary to take into account the fact that in some parts of the categorization tree one meaning prevails, in other parts the other meaning prevails, in some both meanings are mixed together.
Btw., I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't dare to judge whether the dictionaries (mentioned in the sister discussion) can keep up with the development and nuances of English. This is a question of the linguistic approach, whether to measure the quality of language according to dictionaries, or the quality of dictionaries according to how well and accurately they describe the language. Linguistics knows the concept of language productivity, i.e. that language is not a closed set of signs and utterances, but allows creating new forms and new utterances according to semantic and grammatical rules, for example on the principle of analogy. The fact that the substantive form of the adjective is not captured in some dictionaries does not necessarily mean that it does not exist in the language or that it is incorrect. It can be a neologism, an occasionalism or a technical term from a field that the given dictionary does not deal with in detail. A noun formed as a substantive adjective can have a different form and meaning than the noun from which the adjective was formed. Substantiating an adjective through the process of dropping a noun from the phrase is probably also a phenomenon that occurs also in English. --ŠJů (talk) 05:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter what the native language of each user is, because "panorama" and its derivatives come from Greek and there are many Indo-European languages in which it means exactly the same thing. Effectively, Panorama is a noun and panoramic an adjective, so they can and should coexist.
The first one reflects the substantive content of the photo (general view, overview, etc.). The second reflects a formal feature of the image. There may be panoramic photos that are not panoramas, such as panoramics of trees or cloisters.
On the other hand, there are thousands of panoramas that are not panoramic, in the photographic sense of the word, which is the one that must prevail in an image repository.
In analog times panoramic photos were taken with special cameras (usually with a rotating lens). Nowadays they are achieved by merging two or more image files using the appropriate software.
Summing up: I do not agree with renaming, neither in the short nor in the long term. LBM1948 (talk) 08:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Question @LBM1948: Would you classify the contents of Category:Panoramics by country as "panoramas" or "panoramics"? (I am asking about the actual contents, not the name.) Josh (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
it was already decided in Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/02/Category:Panoramics to adopt
panoramas
panoramic photographs
panoramic paintings
panoramic videosŠJů
...
and most cats currently present will be moved to "panoramic photographs of ...".
if you have nothing new to say, then there's nothing to discuss. RZuo (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RZuo: You are correct that the existing consensus is to use "panoramas" and sub-divide by type of media with "panoramic" as an adjective for "panoramic photographs", etc. I do not see a consensus here to overturn that prior resolution, so I think we can go forward with conforming to the original consensus, no? Josh (talk) 17:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
yes.
just to clarify something. i said "most cats currently present will be moved to "panoramic photographs of ..."" because many of them really just contain photos. but for some countries which have a lot more content and already contain videos paintings etc., the layer "panoramas" becomes necessary. ofc nothing against building the "panoramas of <country>" layer for every country now.
i didnt finish moving the tree because i wanted to build a new automated tool first: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Idea_Lab&oldid=725540609#Script_/_supervised_bot_to_help_cfd . also some moves require sysop right to overwrite existing junk pages. it's too tedious to do this mechanical job manually. i aim to get the tool ready by the end of this year. for now i think it's ok to leave it like this temporarily. it's not the most urgent thing or the worst maintenance problem. RZuo (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This category discussion has been closed.
Consensus Resolved by consensus
Actions Rename Category:Panoramics by country to Category:Panoramas by country
Participants
Closed by Josh (talk) 11:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment Execution of action can wait on a tool or can be done manually in the meantime at users' discretion.
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