Category talk:National costumes by country

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:National costumes by country

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Instead of "National costumes", shouldn't all categories follow "Traditional costumes" as actual scope? Zoupan (talk) 00:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lot of categories to be renamed. I also prefer "traditional costumes", though, as that would include regional costumes too. --rimshottalk 11:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As per actual scope, that is indeed the best name.--Zoupan (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Another name used is "folk costumes".--Zoupan (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Themightyquill: Any thoughts?--Zoupan (talk) 17:58, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Achim: Any thoughts?--Zoupan (talk) 17:58, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Neutral There's a long discussion at en:Talk:Folk_costume#National_costume_vs_folk_costume worth checking out. English wikipedia's article is at en:Folk costume but it used to be at "National costume" as evidenced by the still existing en:Category:National costume. "Nation" in this case might not refer to "nation state", but just nation as in "a people", so "regional costumes" might still be national costumes. ie. ethnic minorities existing solely within a state might still have their own "national" costume. I'm not especially opposed to a change, but I don't see it causing a lot of problems the way it is now. Redirects from Category:Folk costumes should definitely be put in place though.- Themightyquill (talk) 07:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now that you mention it, national is indeed a problematic term. National ≠ Folk/Traditional. "national" implies a nation-wide or nation-representative costume. "folk" and "traditional" do not have that meaning. To avoid confusion over whether a particular dress is a/the national costume, as implied by the term, and as the scope of all Commons-categories are indeed folk/traditional costumes (several, various), a move would not be controversial. --Zoupan (talk) 12:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would be a good change too! Most of the pictures in the categories is not on one national costume but on many different traditional costumes. In Sweden there is a national costume called "Nationella dräkten" (The national costume, used in the 1700s by the aristocrats) but it is not at all what most people mean when they talk about traditional "folkdräkter" (folk costumes), and most of the pictures in the category are on folkdräkter. --Astridx (talk) 23:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Astridx, Zoupan, and Rimshot: It seems to me that, as Astridx says, "traditional" is broader category that might contain a "national" subcategory (in cases where clothing has been formalized as part of nationalist projects.) So I propose a move to Category:Traditional clothes by country‎ for all of these, unless a "national" sub-category is clearly necessary. I'd suggest we use clothes over costumes for the sake of clarify, since costumes can have different meanings. I realize "traditional" is subjective, but not any more than "national". - Themightyquill (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Zoupan, Astridx, and Rimshot: Do we have consensus to rename to Category:Traditional clothing by country? Thanks. - Themightyquill (talk) 20:31, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we do. --rimshottalk 20:15, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see another problem. «Traditional costumes» does not include more modern/newer/current clothing, but typical for a country. Nevertheless I also like the term Traditional Clothes. -- Kürschner (talk) 11:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I was ready to do this, but what to we do with Category:National costumes? Just move it to Category:Traditional clothing? - Themightyquill (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Traditional cloths", "Traditional clothing", "Traditional costumes"... While for some countries we have several cats for the same stuff, for others (who have a rich cultural heritage in this area) we have none. This is where "self-centered activity" (nationalism) in Commons and Wikipedias have brought us. Shame on me for my part. E4024 (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/07/Category:Traditional clothes by country. JopkeB (talk) 07:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion about this matter has been continued on Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/07/Category:Traditional clothes by country. See there for the conclusions and actions; they are in line with the outcome of this discussion. JopkeB (talk) 06:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Traditional clothes by country

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Some of the subcats are about "Traditional clothes (by country)", some are about "Traditional costumes (by country)", and some are "Traditional clothing ( by country)"; hence we have to simplify and harmonize those cats and reduce the number of varieties. E4024 (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not to freighten anybody, but, of course, when we can overcome the above then we will have to harmonize the outcome also with "Category:National costumes of (put country name here). The problem about having so many different namings is that one or the other country appears not to have any traditional clothing or a national costume etc... --E4024 (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This problems exists largely because Commons:Categories for discussion/2015/05/Category:National costumes by country is unresolved, or at least, incompletely closed, which is partly my fault. - Themightyquill (talk) 19:18, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


So there are four different terms for traditional/folk costumes, all about the same subject:

  1. Category:Traditional clothing, whith subcategories by country starting with Traditional clothing as well as Traditional clothes and Traditional costumes. Sub-subcategories also start with Dress and fashion.
  2. Category:National costumes, with subcategories by country starting with National costumes as well as Folk national costumes.

There are even countries with subcategories in both parent categories, at least for the Netherlands (Category:Traditional clothes of the Netherlands and Category:National costumes of the Netherlands). This is a problem, at least for me. So for me it is clear that these two parent categories should be merged into one category.
There are two decisions to make:

  1. What name should the parent category have? We have to choose between 1 and 2, or invent another term for the parent category.
  2. Should all the subcategories start with the same term?

@1.: What should be the name of the parent category:

  • First part: Traditional, national or another term? I prefer the term Folk, with Traditional as second best. These are more neutral terms and apply to all kind of groups: national, ethnic/cultural groups within and across national borders (like the Sami in northern Europe), regional, provincial, of a big city or a small village. A National costume rarely applies to a nation/country as a whole. Drop the nationalisme. I prefer Folk above Traditional because, as Dinkytown wrote: "Traditional dress" refers to something that is fixed in time, which culture and clothing is not.
  • Second part: clothing, clothes, costumes or dresses? Clothing and clothes are broader terms and more clear, at least to a not-native English speaker like myself. So I would prefer Folk clothing, but: "folk clothing" is not used in the specialist literature (citation of PKM). PKM also writes: "In the museum and art-historical worlds, "costume" and "dress" are both preferred terms." And since in EN-Wikipedia Folk costume is the preferred term, I would vote for Category:Folk costumes.

@2.: Should all the subcategories start with the same term? Ideally yes. But then there are a lot of categories to be renamed. Perhaps we should be practical and only merge the subcategories for countries in both current parent categories (like the Netherlands).
JopkeB (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned at Commons:Categories for discussion/2015/05/Category:National costumes by country and en:Folk costume, neither "folk" nor "costume" are appreciated when discussing traditional Indigenous regalia in North America. I could be wrong, but my impression is that those terms are very European-focused terms. Nation/national can also be confusing, because it may refer to a country or a people. Traditional clothing is accurate, broader/more inclusive, and unambiguous. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In neither of the two discussions I found that "folk" is an incorrect word. Can you point that out to me?
At en:Talk:Folk_costume I read that most of the contributors to that discussion did not at all object to "costume", even if they were from Indonesia or the Philippines.
After a lot of discussion about the title name, the title on EN Wikipedia went to "Folk costume" and there was no discussion about the name again. So I would think that Category:Folk costumes will still be the best name for the Commons category as well. JopkeB (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@E4024: Are you still interested in this discussion? Please add your opinion about the name. JopkeB (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the folk that was raised as problematic, but using "costume" to describe Indigenous regalia. A little googling will confirm that it's often considered offensive, since in North America "costume" was an association with Halloween. "Folk costume" may also suggest there is just one such outfit per people, whereas "traditional clothing" acknowledges there may be more. - Themightyquill (talk) 11:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Themightyquill: It looks like we cannot come to a conclusion about the name. What to do? Shall I invite the participants of Commons:Categories for discussion/2015/05/Category:National costumes by country to join this discussion? Or shall we hold a poll/vote about the two names (Traditional clothing and Folk costumes) and invite them as well? JopkeB (talk) 07:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can invite more participation, I guess? Commons doesn't have a good solution to deal with impasses and low-participation. - Themightyquill (talk) 11:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zoupan, Rimshot, Astridx, Kürschner, and E4024: Some years ago you participated in the discussion Commons:Categories for discussion/2015/05/Category:National costumes by country. Unfortunately this discussion was incompletely closed. Now there is a new discussion about the same subject, with only two participants, with opposing opinions. We would like to ask you to join this new discussion and hopefully your input will bring us to a conclusion. In short:

  1. There are a lot of different names used in the subcategories of Category:Traditional clothes by country.
  2. Themightyquill and JopkeB would like to harmonize those category names and reduce the number of varieties. So far we agree.
  3. There are two questions to be solved:
    1. What name should the parent category have? Themightyquill votes for Category:Traditional clothing, JopkeB for Category:Folk costumes. See arguments above.
    2. Should all the subcategories start with the same term? Answer so far: Perhaps we should be practical and only merge the subcategories for countries in both current parent categories.

What do you think? JopkeB (talk) 03:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Traditional clothing" surrounds it best, I think. Good luck with it!-- 06:48, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
In my eyes, the older discussion leaned to traditional clothing. I still think that it's the best choice, because it is more inclusive than national costumes (what about regional costumes? e.g., Category:National costumes of Germany contains no national costumes at all, because there is no such thing in Germany) and more neutral than anything with costumes in the name (as per Themightyquill). I have no preference regarding clothing vs. clothes. That being said, I would be happy with any of traditional clothes, traditional clothing or folk costumes. --rimshottalk 22:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the vote is:

  • Category:Traditional clothing: 2 (Themightyquill + Kürschner)
  • Category:Folk costumes: 1 (JopkeB)
  • Neutral: 1 (Rimshot)

So the vote is in favor of "Category:Traditional clothing". That it will be. JopkeB (talk) 05:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion was about reducing the variety of names of the subcategories of Category:Traditional clothing, and first of all about the one name that can be used in all the subcategories.

Help is welcome (1) to change all the categories involved to the agreed name AND (2) I have trouble to change the Wikipedia links in Wikidata item D:Q9662151 and others to the right/new ones. JopkeB (talk) 05:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Open discussions (27-11-2021)
There are some countries that have two categories about traditional clothing. The question is: can these categories be merged into the main category starting with "Traditional clothing of"?

Other discussions and questions:

--JopkeB (talk) 05:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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