User:Krok6kola/Archive 2020

Category:Temple_Terrace_Golf_Club

Temple Terrace Golf Club has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Ebyabe (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:Beach_Koromachno

Beach Koromachno has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Josh (talk) 00:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:Fabrication_Shop

Fabrication Shop has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Josh (talk) 23:44, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:Handrab_Valley

Handrab Valley has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Josh (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:Karakoram_Highway_in_Xinjiang

Karakoram Highway in Xinjiang has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Josh (talk) 20:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:State_Normal_University_(Bloomington)

State Normal University (Bloomington) has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Closeapple (talk) 00:45, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Kalbbes, why did you remove Category:Namib Desert from :

• File:Nubibberge (2017).jpg‎
• File:Brandberg (Namibia).jpg‎
• File:Brandberg mountain and Damara shacks, Namibia.jpg‎

and the Category:Runways in Namibia from :

• File:Airfield Aus (2017).jpg
• File:Airfield Aus, Namibia (2017).jpg

and the Category:History of Namibia from :

• File:Alte Tankstelle Simplon, Namibia (2017).jpg‎

in my opinion these categories were correct. Regards --Olga Ernst (talk) 19:55, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Olga Ernst: If you feel strongly, then do put those categories back. We each do what we think will work. My reasons for removing some categories were they seemed to be over-categorized, making other categories overly large and confusing, e.g. Category:Namib Desert. My goal was to be able to understand Namibia the way I can understand other countries. I categorize countries all over the world but found the categories of Namibia extremely hard to understand. This despite my starting some categories in Namibia years ago.

Sometimes African countries that were colonized by a European power have (to my mind) strange ways of categorizing the country to fit the mindset of the colonizing country, and I thought perhaps that what is going on in Namibia. I apologize if I was wrong. I'm sorry for doing anything that upset you. Regards, Kalbbes (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for answering that quick Kalbbes, and sorry for not filling in the subject/headline to this discussion !! You are definitely correct with the arguments about strange categorizing behaviour. I'll prove my files again ! Good night and regards, --Olga Ernst (talk) 21:43, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Category:Pantages Theatre (Hollywood)

Hi. I think this category, which you created last month, is a duplicate of Category:Pantages Theater, Hollywood. Can you confirm? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: Thanks for alerting me. At the time I thought I checked that and put in a redirect to one of them, but I guess I didn't. The reason I preferred Category:Pantages Theatre (Hollywood) is to distinguish this one from Category:Pantages Theatre (Broadway, Los Angeles) so when looking in Category:Theaters in Los Angeles the format would match and it would be obvious there were two Pantages Theatres in Los Angeles (which I found out only accidently). But I screwed up. If you are willing, please fix. Or I can fix it doing a more complete job than I did then. Some actions I do for aesthetic or other reasons could be wrong. Kalbbes (talk) 15:28, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've merged them to Category:Pantages Theatre (Hollywood), hopefully that looks OK to you? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: Thanks so much! Kalbbes (talk) 15:37, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Manaslu_treking

Category:Manaslu_treking has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Rupert Pupkin (talk) 22:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rupert Pupkin: It appears from the category history that you created it. Nice to see you are still around. Best Kalbbes (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

No, you did, that's why you got this automatic message. But no problem...

I was off for a while. Moving from Pakistan to Nepal... No, just kidding. It's all them high mountains... (and some snakes occassionally). Best regards --Rupert Pupkin (talk) 10:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

US 1 Crystal City

US 1 continues north along I-395 in Arlington County, which is not considered part of Crystal City, so the category shouldn't be included within Crystal City. Famartin (talk) 18:36, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@@Famartin: Many images of it were on the Crystal City page and I was just trying to put them all in one place to disentangle them from all the images already there. All the better if those images are removed from the Crystal City page entirely. Thanks, Kalbbes (talk) 19:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@@Kalbbes: Actually that's not the better, they are still in Crystal City. If you don't want them in the main category, a subcat of "US Route 1 in Crystal City" might be the place to put them, or a more general "Roads in Crystal City". But they are still in Crystal City. I'll put them back where they were and you can decide what option you prefer. Famartin (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

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You have vandalized the content of Wikimedia Commons. Please stop. If you continue making inappropriate edits you may be blocked from editing Commons. You may test freely in the sandbox.

A.Savin 18:45, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: How have I vandalized? I am unaware of doing so. If I have don't something wrong, please tell me what it is. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Violating COM:OVERCAT, removing valid infobox, removing valid categories, just to name examples. I use revert/undo function to let you know; if you disabled pings and don't see it, it's not my problem. --A.Savin 20:48, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: I haven't disabled pings. I was working on Old Town of Galle and its Fortifications and reading articles on the internet about the site. I think if you look at all I did you will see I worked very hard and added good info and cats. And I was planning to continue. I'm sorry that I over categorized some unintentionally. It took me a long time to be able to sort images because I didn't know where things were due to the way the cats were set up there. (I've never come across that way of using cats) But I see you left almost all of what I did intact. I would like to continue working on that. Are you saying I should not do so? Best, Kalbbes (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, if careful is not possible, then indeed, better not at all. --A.Savin 21:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

And here violating OVERCAT, so second warning. You are getting close to a block. Thanks --A.Savin 21:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

This is surely not unintentional, so this definitely cannot go on. Categorize properly, or let it be. Final warning. Thanks --A.Savin 13:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: It was unintentional truly. Why would I do it intentionally when the Commons is the only pleasurable part of my life given my current illness. I don't know what you mean by saying I am intentionally doing the wrong things. I have been doing the best I can. I have hundreds of thousands of edits, and although I have made mistakes, especially in the beginning, I have organized whole categories all over the world that still exist today. Why do you think I have malevolent intentions? I am a human being. If over categorizing is a block-able offense, then there are a huge number of editors here that do it and never are given any consequences. I fixed those in the Sri Lanka cat. And I refine my edits over time and fix my mistakes as I learn more about a subject like Sri Lanka. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 13:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Weighing in here, coming from discussion on Help desk. Clearly this is not intentional vandalism (vandalism would be adding something like Category:Geography of Myanmar to an image of Sri Lanka or Category:My girlfriend to pretty much anything, but it does suggest, Kalbbes, that you have something to learn about this. If you see a category already on an image or category at all similar to one you are thinking of adding, you should make a habit of looking at least a couple of levels up the hierarchy from that and see if the category you are thinking of adding is already effectively there. Jmabel ! talk 00:23, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Thank you for your reply. I try to see if there is a category already. But I am sometimes surprised and later have to add a redirect. I don't know of a systematic way of "looking at least a couple of levels up the hierarchy" if there is no clue anywhere that certain cats exist. After categorizing all around the world, only a few other editors have complained out of 300,800+ edits. When an area is under categorized, I might add a temporary category to find my way around, like a District Matera (I can't find the correct district name now) or a general cat like "waterfalls of" or "Building in" to collect images in to look at and I refine or remove later. I know about OVERCAT and don't do it, except temporarily or it is necessary like the rivers and lakes of Pakistan. I don't know another way of finding my way around besides using Google and Wikipedia and the World Heritage Site, and scrutinizing the images and making temporary cats. Sri Lanka doesn't even have districts listed (that I could find). Any tips would be greatly appreciated. (In Sri Lanka, I discovered a WHC, several national parks and other major places that didn't have cats at all.) I am really depressed about this. The "Shops in Sun Prairie" thing that A.Savin uses his diff makes me want to give up entirely, considering a few years ago I by myself organized sections of Wisconsin when no one else was at the time and my categories are still there. In general, it seemed like my cats were appreciated and I got lots of thanks, but now I know they generally are not and that I can't work here anymore with the joy I did. I am now watched like a dog by A.Savin who I feel wants to show me up as incompetent and revert everything they can I do. I am overwhelmed by this. I cannot continues under these conditions. If I continue to edit here, which I probably will, it will not be the same. I know longer feel driven by an overall ideal to produce here to help others. Kalbbes (talk) 02:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

If you are creating a temporary category for your own use during maintenance it should generally be a user category, not a regular one, and should be deleted when you are done. - Jmabel ! talk 19:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Thanks for the suggestion. I've never had this problem before. As long as A.Savin doesn't continue to follow me around I'll be ok. I'll just stay away from Sri Lanka. A user cat wouldn't work as I needed to add temporary cats to navigate around Sri Lanka to see what was there. Nothing was apparent. (I put some cats in to de-obscure info for others and he didn't remove them.) Fortunately, in the Pakistan cat (where I've spent a great deal of time) the general attitude is to enable editors to find things. Anyway, you made me feel better by just being nice to me! So thank you. Kalbbes (talk) 19:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Merced River

Its cool about the revert. That said, I think the park-related cat needs some refinement, namely there should be a subcat for the portion of the Merced River within the park, which would then allow the main Merced River cat to be removed from Yosemite Valley. From the Wikipedia page, it appears less than half the Merced River is within the park, so the whole river definitely shouldn't be in the Yosemite Valley category. But, this is easily remedied with a "Category:Merced River within Yosemite National Park" subcategory. Famartin (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Famartin: I agree! The way it looks now, there is no Merced River outside of Yosemite. Kalbbes (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Warning for repeated vandalism

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Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikimedia Commons.

A.Savin 14:03, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: It is not vandalism. We disagree on the location. I have done hundreds of edits around Karachi and I know where things are. I didn't know it was your image, and knowing how touchy you are, once I realized that I did not change it. You are the only admin ever threatening to block me. And for such a tiny reason. Don't you ever just discuss with another editor? I find that always helps settle issues without such threats of violence towards me. Best wishes to you, Kalbbes (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

See the talk page section above your threat. That was settled peaceably and I got several thanks pings from that user. Best wishes, Kalbbes (talk) 14:13, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

This building is definitely ruined, so you may not just remove the valid category, never mind repeat your removal after warnings.

Btw, I didn't threat any violence (this is quite a heavy and unjust accusation, which is standalone a reason for a block), and the issue wrt your edits is by far not the first one. I already warned you on this page because of COM:OVERCAT and yesterday you continued as if nothing happened.

NB. Your discussion style very much reminds me of an other, WMF banned user. Let's hope (for you) that this is nothing more than a silly coincidence. --A.Savin 14:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: What? Another threat? You mean a suggestion that we discuss issues makes you think I should be banned? The building is obviously not ruined. Have you looked at ruins in Pakistan? Ruins means ancient buildings in ruins or buildings bombed by terrorists. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 14:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, if only just the walls are left and other elements such as windows and balconies are destroyed, it IS a ruined building. Ruins are not only ancient or after bombings. --A.Savin 14:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: Please, just discuss things with me! I am perfectly reasonable. I hardly am a violator of COM:OVERCAT; rather I am almost always a reducer of cats. Have you looked at Category:Protected areas of Sri Lanka? Your last threat to me came when I was trying to sort through that and REDUCE overcat. Just inform me when you are touchy about something. I don't pay much attention to that thingie that supposed to notify because I really can't see it. But I don't want to cause you stress. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

So that means that you aare not seeing this as OVERCAT? Despite the obvious, that the Karachi coast is of course Arabian Sea, because... what else? --A.Savin 15:12, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: I'm sorry but I can't tell exactly what that diff is pointing at. That I didn't realize something about the beaches of Pakistan? Is it ok now? Kalbbes (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

This comment I frankly don't understand. Please stop pinging me, for me EOD. --A.Savin 16:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You may be blocked soon

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   This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Commons.

A.Savin 20:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: For what? Kalbbes (talk) 20:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

[1] --A.Savin 20:53, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: I don't see what I did wrong. You were wrong to revert me. Kalbbes (talk) 20:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, and 2x2=5. --A.Savin 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: No! It equals seven. Kalbbes (talk) 21:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: I did nothing wrong. You are incorrect. Please prove that you were right to revert me. Kalbbes (talk) 21:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

What exactly should I prove? You removed category "Parks in Karachi", while it is in fact a park ("Beach view park"). Yes, a very poor one, but still a park. --A.Savin 22:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: "Beach view park" is another name for Clifton. In fact I was just now going to put a note to that effect on the page. What about my suggestion that I move everything to Clifton, Karachi, per enwiki article?

If you look at all the pics, including the aerials, you'll see that's true. Kalbbes (talk) 22:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"Beach view park" is a park between Bagh Ibne Quasim and the beach. See [2] --A.Savin 22:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: What about my suggestion about moving the non-beach stuff to Clifton, Karachi that I suggested on your talk page. That would settle a lot of things. The article says the embassies are there, including the Russian one. Kalbbes (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I already responded on my talk page, what is the difference between Clifton area and Clifton beach. No need to repeat myself. --A.Savin 22:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• @A.Savin: when I click on Commons:Vandalism at the top of your warning to me, it describes vandalism examples as "an obscene file is uploaded over an existing one, or another malicious change is made ... ". I'm not malicious. I'm not doing anything like that at all. Really, we disagree about some things because I go by the enwiki article or sometimes I make mistakes, but not grievous ones. Best wishes to you, Kalbbes (talk) 01:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Notification

See COM:ANU#User:Kalbbes. --A.Savin 00:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Reply

Reply to Colin

Colin, I have made suggestions to A.Savin on his page and mine many times. He has told me to stop "EOD". Since he stalks me, how can I "take a break from him"? Your advice reflects that you are unaware of what has transpired.

A.Savin feels sorry for himself when one edit he "owns" is "destroyed". So he has "destroyed" in return. I have asked for a "third" opinion at the Help desk several times and A.Savin resents that, if you have read his posts. On the roof vs. ceiling issue, I was told to look at the Pakistan documentation of the heritage ID. Did A.Savin do that? No. There is a clear double standard here. What Pakistan wants/thinks doesn't matter if you are an Admin.

I have tried to please A.Savin ever since he targeted me. I used the "thank" button. I put many images into cats I knew he would find (and he did). He continues unknowingly to use mostly cats I have created.

A.Savin's "high standards" are for himself ("my work") - his vanity. He is not thinking of the overall good of the Commons. He punishes any editor that touches "my work". I am not alone in having a low opinion of "wiki data" and the infoboxes as "added value".

Why do I have 400,000 edits in 4 years? Because I comb the "uncategorized" regularly and I create needed cats. That's why my cats have lasted. Often I go back and refine the cat myself as the category system has evolved.

I don't feel I "own" categories I create. I don't feel my edits are personal as A.Savin does his. The way A.Savin gets back emphasizes his power. I am (was) working for the overall good of the Commons. It feels like you are patronizing me. I am looked down upon for using the wording that Pakistan uses on its heritage ID's, as "confusing a roof with a ceiling". And "destroying a category system" when I created those categories for Pakistan. So maybe I am "clumsy" and don't have "high standards"? I think I have been too compliant. Being nasty seems to work for A.Savin. Thank you for presently reality. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 22:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Once again: the ID is SD-P-116. --A.Savin 01:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@A.Savin: Then add it to the image. Kalbbes (talk) 01:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Edit-warring at File:PK Karachi asv2020-02 img23 Chundrigar Road.jpg

Hi Kalbbes, please do not edit-war as you did here ([3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]). In case of a dispute a discussion should be opened on the associated talk page. We do not play games here who is faster in reverting the edits of others. Where necessary, community input can be invited at COM:VP. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 06:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Use of user talk pages

Hi Kalbbes, whenever you learn that your messages are not welcome on a user talk page, you should not harass the owner of the talk page by posting your message again and again ([11], [12]). Instead, the talk page of the disputed content page is to be used or one of the administrative boards when necessary. We try to stay mellow at Commons and we do not like to see contributing photographers to be harassed with such petty conflicts. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 06:57, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@AFBorchert: Is there a double standard on this site? Those who categorize, like me, are allowed to be harassed but not photographers? Remember, he threatened to block me three times within two days recently and you stood up for him. A.Savin is not mellow, but that's fine with you?

A.Savin reverts me for very minor issues several times a day now (the only one who ever reverts me), e.g. if I add an enwiki link to a cat that doesn't have one. He thinks that is unnecessary. Since he deletes his talk posts he doesn't like, you don't see the complaints, e.g. yesterday he received a post telling him "not to bite the newbies" from a prominent editor here. He reverted me six times yesterday because he refused to add the cultural ID to an image he classified has having one, yet reverted Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Pakistan with unknown IDs‎‎.

At least my posts prompted him to finally add the ID.

Please let me know if I'm still welcome here, or if I'm a second class citizen. Best, Kalbbes (talk) 13:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Kalbbes, there exist absolutely no justification for such an edit war like this one between you and A.Savin. This is a disruption we do not want to see here at Commons. Staying mellow applies to all, there are no first or second class citizen in this regard. If your message on a user talk page gets deleted by that user consider it read. It is not very polite to delete user talk pages but this does not justify to post them again. The purpose of this project is not to get on each other's nerves but to build an media repository of educational value. Your current attitude is not helpful. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 15:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@AFBorchert: "Staying mellow applies to all"? Why don't you focus on A.Savin's role in the warring also? What is his "justification" for the "disruption"? Your focus seems very one sided. A.Savin's current attitude is not helpful, but you defend it and do his talking for him. Should not an admin be held to a higher standard?

Please explain the justification for A.Savin's repeatedly reverting my accurate categorization in the edit war you blame on me?

What is the purpose of the Commons? Is its primary purpose for the aggrandizement of those who take photos? And my 400,000+ cat creations and sorting is only the work of a second class citizen? Best, Kalbbes (talk) 15:43, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Kalbbes, again: that someone else does not appear to be mellow or participates in an edit war does not mean that you are free to break rules as well. It is worrying that you still do not appear to accept that Commons is a project where we need to work collegially, not confrontationally. Having 400,000+ edits at Common does not entitle you to participate in an edit war or to harass other editors at Commons. My focus is not one-sided, I've also talked to A.Savin regarding this unfortunate conflict. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 16:12, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@AFBorchert: I do not harass other editors. A.Savin is the only editor in five years or so here with whom I've ever had an edit war or any kind of conflict. I've never edit warred before, never. So please stop with the generalized accusations that I don't work collegiality (I do) or that I am confrontational (I am not). Kalbbes (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

You are confrontational with A.Savin. This has to stop. Do not edit war and do not harass A.Savin on his talk page. If there is a conflict, use the file or category talk pages or invite community input. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:41, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:African American cemeteries

1. What is the basis for "African American" as an adjective without a hyphen?
2. There is a correct way to move a category. What you did is definitely not it. Among other things, you totally broke the Wikidata link. - Jmabel ! talk 23:53, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: , according to the APA style guide, hyphens should not be used with color words for ethnic groups. The manual specifies that hyphens should not be used in multiword names such as Asian American or African American. That is my basis. Plus it does not have a hyphen in other places on the Commons, such as Category:African American history. So I followed that. Krok6kola (talk) 00:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not really that concerned which way we go on hyphenation, but I have no idea what you mean here by "color words". What word here is a "color word"?

I am concerned that you used the wrong way to move a category, and now all of the history of the category page is on the redirect instead of in the right place. Please, when you want to move a category, as a non-admin, use User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands and use {{Move cat}} as described there. Then an admin gets to review your request, and moves it to User:CommonsDelinker/commands, where a bot makes the move in a way that doesn't break stuff. - Jmabel ! talk 03:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: , What is mean is ethnicity or "race". (I just copied that word "color", sorry.) I think this explains it better than I can: AP tackles language about race in this year’s style guide But in any case, on the Commons the hyphen is not used, so is it not a goal to at least be consistent here?

I have read the two links you refer to above about moving and cannot understand exactly what to do. I asked a while ago at the help desk, hoping for some more specific instructions. Krok6kola (talk) 03:49, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

There are two issues here: About the name of the category and about the correct technique for renaming categories.

Let us start with the name of the category. You marked Category:African-American cemeteries as a {{Bad name}} using the edit comment please delete - misspelling. That this is not a simple misspelling can be seen at one of the photos of that category: File:AfAmBGrndNP.jpg. There exist long debates whether a hyphenation is appropriate or not, there is even the term of “hyphenated Americans”. The article Hyphenated Americans provides a nice summary and comes with a recommendation: If it is a noun, it should not be hyphenated, but in case of a compound adjective preceding a noun it should be hyphenated. Per this recommendation we would write “He is an African American” (without hyphen) and “This is an African-American cemetery” (with hyphen). This is not universally followed but at least Random House uses this as a guideline. But cases like this should not be unilaterally moved without a previous discussion involving native speakers. Hence, this would have been a natural candidate for a COM:CFD process.

Now about the technique on how to rename categories: As elaborated by Jmabel, we do not want to see categories with a long history to be deleted and then to be recreated with a different name. This breaks the Wikidata links and this buries the history in a deleted page. Those who cannot do this themselves, should ask for such a move by the use of the {{Move cat}} template.

You are asking “what to do”. Well, unfortunately you cannot undo this mess yourself. We just ask you to avoid such mistakes in the future. I will now restore the previous state. This is not necessarily the final state. Any wish to change it, however, shall go through COM:CFD. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 08:03, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

This has now been done, Category:African-American cemeteries has been restored along with its wikidata link, its history, and its former content. --AFBorchert (talk) 08:14, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Category:African Cemetery, Rye

Hi Krok6kola, I've executed your move as requested. However, please keep following points in mind:

1. Please do not create the new category in advance. It will have to be deleted otherwise first.
2. Please do not move the category contents in advance.
3. Please use the {{Move}} template properly, following its documentation. You do not repeat the name of the old category. Instead the new category name is its first parameter.

Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 08:58, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

African-American cemeteries, again

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Mt._Olivet_Cemetery,_Roslyn,_Washington&diff=436541757&oldid=434614827 : I'm doing my best to assume good faith, so: what did you have in minde removing this category? - Jmabel ! talk 18:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: I'm sorry. I made a mistake. I'm glad you put it back. I'm not dealing with that category anymore. Krok6kola (talk) 18:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Asking explanation for your new edit

Hi, recently you removed Balochistan Category from a couple of pages like Sistan and Baluchestan Province and a huge list of another related categories on wikicommons... I'm really curious that what is wrong with that category? Was it not related with that categories and contents? If you think so, So let me make it clear for you. First of all you can check Balochistan region article on Wikipedia to find out that Balochistan is an existing region on south eastern part of Iranian Plateao Which expended between Afghanistan, Iran & Pakistan. So that category is clearly related with that pages and contents (like Sistan & Balochistan province, Balochistan province of Pakistan, Nimroz province of Afghanistan and.. some other nearby places in this three countries) ... So I should Ask you to rollback your changes and add Category:Balochistan again to that you've removed as soon as possible; Please. And If you need more references ask me to do so. Sohrabpahravi (talk) 10:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sohrabpahravi: I removed some that belonged to Category:Balochistan (Pakistan) on the Commons, including those in Category:Khuzdar District and Category:Tharia Cave Paintings which are in Pakistan. No part of Pakistan is directly shared with Iran AFIK.

There are several countries that have a related category on the Commons. For example, for Iran the category is Category:Sistan and Baluchestan Province. The Category:Iranian plateau also includes Category:Landforms of Turkmenistan, Category:Landforms of Afghanistan and Category:Landforms of Iran. There is a cat for Category:West Azerbaijan Province that is an Iranian province. Under Category:Maps of Balochistan (which are historical maps only) there is only one map that includes any part of the current Pakistan and that would be in what is now the Pakistan province of Category:Sindh.

There is not a cat at this time for Category: Balochistan region. Hope this explains my actions. Best, Krok6kola (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It seems that you haven't enough information about "Iranian Plateao" & it's boundaries and balochistan region which is a historical & cultural and linguistical region. See Iranian Plateao on Wikipedia & also This map to understand that Iranian Plateao is a geographical area not a country and balochistan region (including Sistan and Baluchestan Province of Iran, Balochistan province of Pakistan and Nimroz province of af Afganistan) located on south eastern part of it and obviously balochistan province of Pakistan Is the most eastern edge of that. So It's very clear that khuzdar district is located in balochistan region and obviously Tharia Cave Paintings also... Because it's in khuzdar. So it's very normal to add Category:Balochistan to them. And in Category:Maps of Balochistan the thing is not Pakistan at all and it's about balochistan region. Why it should show all of Pakistan? While only western half of Pakistan is eastern part of balochistan ant western part of balochistan is in Iran Which it's historical name was Makran. Again I ask you to rollback your changes please, otherwise I'll make changes myself or I call for third person to judge... With a lot of respect. Sohrabpahravi (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sohrabpahravi: I think we should ask a third source, perhaps we could ask at the Commons:Help desk for a good place to ask about this. I don't know of a specific editor to ask about Pakistan. Regards, Krok6kola (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I believe that's Iranian Plateau, not "Plateao", and yes, that extends well beyond the nation-state now known as Iran, not only into Pakistan but also even into Afghanistan. Remember, Persia was once a vast empire. - Jmabel ! talk

@Jmabel: @Sohrabpahravi: What we are discussing now, on Sohrabpahravi's talk page, is some other categories. I agreed with them on Category:Balochistan (Pakistan) being added back to Category:Balochistan based on Balochistan. but not that Category:Tharia Cave Paintings, Category:Khuzdar District and maybe a couple of others being added separately as they are already in Category:Balochistan (Pakistan). Category:Makran is not in Pakistan. And there does not exist currently a Category: Balochistan region. So that is how it stands now, from my point of view. Is this satisfactory? Krok6kola (talk) 01:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know enough on Balochistan/Makran to have an opinion. But people should definitely try to get consensus before they make big changes, especially where issues of national pride are likely to be involved. - Jmabel ! talk 02:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Asking for help about copy-right status

Hi, I recently uploaded This map on wikicommons. It is archived on Here(Library of Congress) and in my perspective I uploaded it under proper license. But It received automatically a warning by some bot because no copyright tag was detected. Could you help me and put proper Tag on it please.Sohrabpahravi (talk) 18:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sohrabpahravi: It needs some kind of ID number. I am trying to figure it out. If I can't I will ask someone to help me. Krok6kola (talk)

I made right a part of it and added some licenses an tags... Please check it out to make sure If I didn't make any mistake. Sohrabpahravi (talk) 18:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sohrabpahravi: It needs a "Digital ID". Did you see anything like that? The Library of Congress site says some of its items are copyrighted. Maybe what you put there will help, but it still lacks the Digital ID. I didn't see one of those so far on the site. Krok6kola (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't see sth like that... Don't know but I think. It's Publishing day Is more than 100 year. Anyway thank you for your help. RegardsSohrabpahravi (talk) 18:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Do you know how to help with this problem? (See the discussion above this one on my talk) I have asked for help on the Copyright page but no answer yet. Thanks, Krok6kola (talk) 03:04, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

File:Map of Turkey, Persia, Mecran (Balochistan).jpg looks correctly licensed. Nothing from the 18th Century should be problematic. Isn't the Digital ID just the 98687118 in the source file URL? - Jmabel ! talk 04:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Thank you so much for answering. I think an editor named Sv1xv fixed it, maybe because I asked at the copyright board. So glad is won't be deleted! Krok6kola (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Well

Well, considering you've made nearly half a million edits, I'm sure you get more daily notifications than Miley Cyrus gets daily love letters. :) Anyway, I hope that blue things aren't annoying, and that all of my edits on common topics are fine. --Orijentolog (talk) 00:33, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

@Orijentolog: I really enjoy your edits. You turn up all over the place, just like me! Krok6kola (talk) 00:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Glad to hear that. Since I have a good memory, I have to emphasize: please do not take this edit as hostile. In parallel with Commons, I also do Wikidata fixing, and sometimes can be really slow. That truly annoys me, like that time with bays. --Orijentolog (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

No worries! I have a bad memory and do not have grudges. Krok6kola (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

COM:AN/U

---

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#Krok6kola. This is in relation to an issue with which you may have been involved.

  — Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me} 01:01, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Category:African_American_history_in_South_Carolina

Category:African_American_history_in_South_Carolina has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category. In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

E4024 (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

File:Union Machine Shop, Ketchikan.jpg

I have no problem with the historic district category which remained on the file after my last edit. I restored Category:Buildings in Ketchikan, Alaska which is not a parent of any of the current categories.Dankarl (talk) 01:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Category:Spiral staircases

You changed Category:Spiral staircases from redirect to Category:Spiral stairs to a category in its own life. How do they differ in scope? It is certainly not clear. - Jmabel ! talk 02:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: It is very clear to me. Some images were not in any category because there was no category for "Spiral staircase". Look at the images. "Stair" does not convey the unit of a "staircase". Why does Category:Spiral staircase in the Vatican Museums andCategory:Spiral staircases in England get to exist but not for any other "spiral staircase". Each image is described as a "spiral staircase". I don't understand. There are thousands of categories for ridiculous things, but something that actual exists as a unit does not have a category. I do not understand. Maybe you can explain. Krok6kola (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Can you give an example of an image that would belong in Category:Spiral staircases but not Category:Spiral stairs, or vice versa? Can you add descriptions to the categories that will tell someone which one to use in what circumstances? - Jmabel ! talk 03:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Well, to begin, if it is called a spiral staircase and looks like a spiral staircase that is a good start. I am surprised that you do not easily see a difference between the unit "spiral staircase" and "spiral stairs"? These images are all staircases. The Category:Staircases is overcrowded but I can keep dumping more into it, since a new category "Spiral staircases" of which there are a large number of images is not allowed.

The deleted categories were emptied before being deleted. I have been working for hours on this and I am burned out. I am too tired to do right by your question. I'll try. Look at any of the images that now have been reverted by A. Savin, 19 reversion within four hours, first making a redirect which got rid of most that way. I am deeply tired.

Here are three that are in my tabs, not the best examples,

• File:Spiral Staircase in the Temple of Bel Palmyra Syria.jpg
• File:Spiral staircase (17656336726).jpg
• File:Spiral Staircase (75625991).jpeg,
• File:Escaleira tripla de caracol (Compostela).jpg

I am not up to going back and find the images and categories that have been reverted now. I am too tired and depressed. Many had not categorized at all, or were not in a "stairs" category because (I guess) the editor thought they were staircases, not stairs.

I got an email saying that Wikimedia Commons wants to interview me about my experiences on the Commons because they say I am a highly productive editor and they want to ask me about my views about what it is like editing on the Commons. Maybe some feedback to them will help me here.

And when I ask questions about categories at various places, I am ignored so I am left in the dark.

I have made many thousands of categories here and I keep seeing them on my watchlist so I know I did good; a few were problematic which I fixed. Now I am so frustrated and demoralized my performance has deteriorated, I am rattled and I can no longer think straight so I make more mistakes now. Why are others who make more frequent and worse mistakes are not criticized also?

I am not respected here and too stupid to understand that and keep banging my head against the wall.Krok6kola (talk) 06:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Today I found a revert on my watch list on the File:Castle spiral staircase.jpg I wondered why the (now empty) category Category:Spiral staircases in France has been removed in favour of Category:Spiral stairs in France. I honestly would have searched for a staircase category and not a stairs category. So you are right! I don't know what the problem is. But I find categorisation at Commons highly irritating. Usually it's overcategorisation that irritates me: picture taken on this and that day in the canton of bla with this and that camera by virgins born under the sign of pisces. But sometimes there are categories like "Interiors of churches" where a foreigner like me would have searched for "church interiors" every time I have taken a picture of a church interior, I search for this stupid category. Maybe this is some kind of limbo, where we get punished for any beaurocratic qualities we might show in real life.--Stanzilla (talk) 10:15, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• When this started Category:Spiral staircases was a redirect. User:Krok6kola, if you had looked at its history you would have seen that I had created it -- 12 years ago -- and then promptly turned it into a redirect because (when I started categorizing) I discovered we already had Category:Spiral stairs. I am absolutely certain that you are aware I am still an active user: this is hardly the first time we have interacted, including under your prior account name. Mightn't you have started a CFD and pinged me and also the half dozen or so people who had edited Category:Spiral stairs and attempted to reach some sort of consensus on a preferred name rather than unilaterally making changes this size? I happen to prefer Category:Spiral staircases, but this was clearly a change against consensus and also a creation of two basically indistiguishable categories.
• If you edit against consensus, you should expect the frustration of having your work undone. - Jmabel ! talk 16:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• @Jmabel: I was unaware of the history of this category, as the history has no useful information. And I don't see where "consensus" was reached for your category. Is the consensus that you started it twelve years ago? As with others, it seems like opinion. I have had categories I created redirected, often in ways that I did not like, but I thought this was a collaborative project and accepted the redirects as accepting the opinion of another.
  If an opinion of one is "consensus" then should I get upset when categories I created are redirected and demand a consensus be reached? This has been happening regularly in the last month as a user new to the categories of Pakistan has changed everything, creating new categories with vague names making common categories hard to find. I posted on the Village Pump about this, but as usual my questions get no helpful response.
  I don't know how consensus is reached on the Commons. I know there is no point in starting a "Categories for discussion" as the ones I have started or commented on just languish forever with no consensus reached. And I know there is no point in posting at the Village pump as my questions are ignored. Where was your category discussed and consensus reached?
  In my own history it is always A.Savin who reverts me, deletes my categories and I assumed (this time wrongly) that it was the usual harassment from him that I regularly receive with no explanation. And why did he empty and delete all my other categories (20 of them) that I was working on, that you had nothing to do with starting?
  As I have said before, I have not had any problems with Admins in my four years here, until the last few months, so I have not learned the proper ways of dealing with harassment. A.Savin has never explained his reversions, emptying categories and deletions, including the ones in question here, and I just have to learn from experience. All I have learned is not do to any categorization of his photos as that it always trouble within minutes.
  Auntof6, a very admired person on the Commons, is one of the many that used the category "staircases" within a few minutes of its creation.
  As you can read in the post above, there are others that have trouble with the Commons way of dealing with categories and appreciated the categories of "Spiral staircase" and quickly used them. A great many images use the words "spiral staircase" as it is very common in the real world. Thank you very much for responding. Kind regards, Krok6kola (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Any time you see a cat redirect and plan to turn it into a category, you should look at the history to see why it is a redirect. In this case it was pretty clear. I personally still prefer "spiral staircase", as do you, but as I started classifying it quickly became clear that people had already built a Category:Spiral stairs which already contained images and subcategories, and was synonymous in meaning, and I redirected my new category to match what others were already doing. You came along 12 years later and did not examine this history. I would guess, nonetheless, that you must have pretty quickly discovered that there was already an effective consensus of well over a decade now of using Category:Spiral stairs for this purpose. If you wanted to use Category:Spiral staircases instead, you should have gone to that category and started a CFD. Once you did not do that, you were effectively editing against consensus, and anyone who reverted you was within their rights to do so. - Jmabel ! talk 03:59, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• @Jmabel: I did not know what you assume I did know. And nothing became quickly clear. I incorrectly thought a 12-year-old redirect was out of date. I saw the categories were a mess and thought one way to clean out Category:Staircases was to start subcategories. I have been cleaning up overly large and messy categories for years this way and so far it has always worked. I was unaware I was stepping into a hornet's nest with this. Whatever I do, I seem to end up on your bad side and I'm so sorry for this. I am just ignorant and not good at all this procedural stuff. I am trying, really.
  And I did start the category for discussion as you said to do. And though I'm well versed in architecture, I had no idea that this would turn out to be so controversial. I don't know what else to say. I have created thousands of categories that are still in use, as they pop up on my watchlist. But now that I am tailed, nothing I do avoids strict scrutiny. I can't take someone following my every edit and reverting things I would have fixed anyway, after years of peaceful bliss here. I did think it was a collaborative project and did not until now experience the bad side. But now I clearly see the other side. Perhaps the Commons is no longer for me. Thank you for putting up with me. Very best wishes to you. Krok6kola (talk) 04:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• The longer something has stood a particular way, the more it requires discussion to change it.
• If you want to do categorization work without getting into a lot of conflicts, use existing categories wherever they make any sense at all, and propose changes through CFD. CfD can be slow, but if you ping the relevant parties and specifically say that if no one objects within seven days you intend to go ahead, most of the time if your idea is good no one will object within seven days and you can go ahead (and request closure of the CFD; if you want to be really cautious, wait for the closure). Also, you are unlikely to have conflict building up categories in areas that are previously uncategorized. But if you create effectively duplicate categories, or ones with hair-splitting differences from longstanding categories, I can pretty much guarantee you will have more conflicts than not. - Jmabel ! talk 14:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• @Jmabel: I have changed redirects before when it does not allow me to create a category and there have never been any consequences at all. So all this was totally unexpected. It would have been helpful if A.Savin had explained to me what was going on so that I could be aware of the mistake. I am so accustomed to his deletions of my categories (which I then have to recreate) and constant reversions that show up as an alert that I assumed this was the usual harassment from him.
  This is coupled with the problem of trying to learn about categories here. My questions are never answered. At least two other Admins here have said the system is a mess and information inscrutable. One that A.Savin asked for advice about me said he just uploads his photos and does not worry about the categories they are put in. Another A.Savin consulted about me said the information on categories was confusing and impossible to understand from his point of view. I am not dumb. I have a Ph.D. in a science-based profession and I am licensed in my field so I am accustomed to processing information, but I am a fish out of water here.
  You say:"you are unlikely to have conflict building up categories in areas that are previously uncategorized." As long as A.Savin harasses me here, I will not be safe. Why does a "a non-native English speaker" revert almost daily something innocuous such as reverting "cross-bedded" in a category I created Category:Cross-bedded sandstone in Utah or mess with Category:Shops in Sun Praire, Wisconsin a day later so that they show up red on my alerts? One day there were 19 red alerts. Others do not do that when they improve or redirect a category or edit I have made. This has been going on since spring of this year when he was told he could not block me. Under these conditions it is nerve-wracking and my health is suffering. I have tried my best. It is just not worth it anymore. Krok6kola (talk) 18:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

  I am not wading into your conflict with A. Savin.

  You say your questions are never answered, and wrote at WP:AN/U that I in particular was failing to give you useful answers, but you keep directing questions to me, then often as not ignoring or arguing with my advice. You know what? I think I'm done. Either you'll work things out or you won't, but since you singled me out as not providing useful answers, and you seem inclined to argue with my advice here rather than take it, I have better things to do with my time than to try to help you and have you make public statements that I'm not being helpful. - Jmabel ! talk 20:49, 30 August 2020 (UTC)