Commons talk:Photo challenge/2017 - May - Mammals
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- What is the criteria for disqualification? There are photos of cattle and sheep here, and they are not "wild" animals, they are clearly domesticated species (and most likely, not even feral, just grazing outside somewhere). So, "Wild mammals in their native habitat. No pets, no zoos." may need clarification as regards domesticated livestock. They aren't pets (usually) they aren't in zoos, but they also aren't wild. (That said, if domestic livestock are allowed, in addition to cattle and sheep, does that also then include horses, mules, donkeys, goats, pigs and other such animals?) Montanabw (talk) 23:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Agree I removed them. --Jarekt (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
- I wonder if you should change the name of the challenge to "Wild mammals." Not sure if anyone can remove ineligible images, but I just tossed two more -- though there seem to be formatting issues and about 10 images posted aren't showing up on the page -- this before I tossed the two new ones. Anyway, looks like an ongoing job of policing by someone. Montanabw (talk) 18:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Disagree First, I think one should not be precipitous in removing photos from other people, above all because the criteria for elimination are not so clear and should not be modified with the challenge in course. Who decides what animals are cattle?: not all cows are cattle, not all bufalos are cattle, apes and wild boars can be domesticated. Furthermore, the difference between zoo and natural park can be fuzzy and it's difficult to say what would be "native habitat". I suggest to not remove these photos when they are not clearly out of scope. Tulumnes (talk) 7:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I take no position on how to determine the line between a very large nature park and a zoo, but it's easy to tell what a domesticated cow or sheep looks like. DNA tells us if we have cattle, sheep, pigs, and so on. A buffalo is wild, a hereford is not, and tamed animals are not the same as domesticated ones -- There are very clear definitions of what a domesticated animal is (and it takes many generations) -- the criteria is already "no pets" -- which suffers from similar fuzzy meaning. For example, is my horse a pet, livestock, or a "wild" animal if I can shoot a photo without a fence in it? I say my horse doesn't count for this contest, and neither do domestic dogs, cats, sheep, pigs, goats, and so on -- feral animals are kind of a gray area, I admit that. Montanabw (talk) 08:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- You're right that DNA is the method to distinguish between wild and domestic animals, but from photos it's not always easy: not all buffalo's are wild (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_buffalo). My point is, that since criteria are not that clear, I think, in the spirit of Wikimedia, it would be better to be inclusive and not eliminate other people's pictures out of the blue in case of more or less wild animals. Above all, as you said properly, the case of feral animals gets very slippery. Anyway, exclusion will take place during voting.Tulumnes (talk) 10:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- Well, I take no position on how to determine the line between a very large nature park and a zoo, but it's easy to tell what a domesticated cow or sheep looks like. DNA tells us if we have cattle, sheep, pigs, and so on. A buffalo is wild, a hereford is not, and tamed animals are not the same as domesticated ones -- There are very clear definitions of what a domesticated animal is (and it takes many generations) -- the criteria is already "no pets" -- which suffers from similar fuzzy meaning. For example, is my horse a pet, livestock, or a "wild" animal if I can shoot a photo without a fence in it? I say my horse doesn't count for this contest, and neither do domestic dogs, cats, sheep, pigs, goats, and so on -- feral animals are kind of a gray area, I admit that. Montanabw (talk) 08:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- The subject is MAMMALS without restriction, so what else ? I'm a mammal so I can add a pic of me in front of my bathroom mirror : I'm in my native habitat, no? If some restriction should be why did none wrote it before starting???
- A close-up of marmott on a rock doesn't mean the pic has been taken in the wild or in a park, as a monkey on a tree: who can prove where it was taken? Coord's? I can add coord's of anywhere in Africa while it was taken in a park in Sweden...
LW² \m/ (Lie ² me...) 23:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
The original suggested title was "wild mammals". Now, we are usually tolerant to a certain limit and I probably don't remove a picture but I certainly I won't vote for it. Or i will ask for more information just to be sure. In any case "wild" for me means something that is depicted in his natural habitat. So a safari park is good, a zoo in Sweden even if one of the best zoo int he world and a perfect reproduction of Africa it is not. Also cattle are not wild. A group of animals that have always been in that area and you just put a fence around, it is still ambiguous but in general I would not consider sheep or cows in all the cases. Is it an animal that is there because some human being is taking care of it? Is it a property of someone or something (a zoo, a farm?), than it is not what we are looking for. A squirrel killed on a road is not "natural" as a landscape but it is still wild, i guess. Although in that case there is some doubt where to draw a line. What about a free cat? Or a big rat? :D I would probably appreciate a nice picture of a big rat in a French street, that is his place. So, in practice 1) put a better description to remove cases like cattle 2) inform all the user and politely suggest to remove some of the pictures. ok?--Alexmar983 (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- I am confused the description of the challenge is: "Wild mammals in their native habitat. No pets, no domesticated livestock, no zoos.". As with any challenge there will be images that are clearly within the constraints, clearly outside of the constraints and some in-between. I think anybody could remove images which clearly do not meet the constraints and in-between images hopefully will be penalized during voting. --Jarekt (talk) 01:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- "Penalizing during voting" is probably wise for the marginal cases. As of right now, there are three images I find questionable, two I'd delete for sure (but will let someone else do it, I've been cop once already) and the third is marginal, 1) File:Lion and lioness at the zoo of Rabat, Morocco.jpg states it was taken at a zoo. DQ. 2) File:A_goat,_Rabat-_Morocco.jpg is clearly a domestic goat -- and is in a category identifying it as living at a zoo. DQ for two reasons. 3) File:002 2014 03 18 Wildlebende Säugetiere.jpg are also domesticated goat breed, though possibly feral, so they are in a gray area. Cute, though. What think you, Jarekt? Montanabw (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see all of the confusion. Once removed the case of zoos, images in the gray area are not more ore less than other challenges. Think about a multilingual sign with the second language cancelled in the "mutllingual challenge" or the shape of a 3 created from the reflection in a pond of the neck of a swan in the "numbers" challenge, or the images of a plane in the "vehicle of public transportation" challenge. This case is not so different, in the end.
- If they are nice and they are uploaded, as it is the case, it is still a good thing for commons that is worth our attention to clean the gallery. The goat and the lion should be removed informing the uploader. And than there is the vote step.--Alexmar983 (talk) 02:54, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- "Penalizing during voting" is probably wise for the marginal cases. As of right now, there are three images I find questionable, two I'd delete for sure (but will let someone else do it, I've been cop once already) and the third is marginal, 1) File:Lion and lioness at the zoo of Rabat, Morocco.jpg states it was taken at a zoo. DQ. 2) File:A_goat,_Rabat-_Morocco.jpg is clearly a domestic goat -- and is in a category identifying it as living at a zoo. DQ for two reasons. 3) File:002 2014 03 18 Wildlebende Säugetiere.jpg are also domesticated goat breed, though possibly feral, so they are in a gray area. Cute, though. What think you, Jarekt? Montanabw (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- Jarekt and others: We have a couple more clearly ineligible images: 1 ) File:A potter with his pots (unless we are including humans as "mammals") and two of domesticated livestock: File:A farmer farming with water buffaloes Koraput.jpg, and File:Yak at Sikkim. Montanabw (talk) 06:04, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- I removed them now. I have left message at User talk:Shiv's fotografia earlier but got no answer. There are still a few problematic entries: 2 remarkable photographs of highland cattle and puzzling "wild yaks in South Tyrol". According to Wild yak there are no wild yaks outside of Asia, so I suspect some kind of zoo or park. --Jarekt (talk) 12:10, 19 May 2017 (UTC)