Commons talk:File renaming/Archive/2018
 | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Absurd i18n in file names
There are situations where use of some language or script in the file name is contrary to the common sense, but these rationales aren’t covered by the Criteria. File:Garrand Hall of Seattle University 芸術と科学のブランチ - panoramio.jpg uses Japanese for a photo of a building in Seattle, Washington. “芸術と科学のブランチ” isn’t the title of a thesis prepared in the building by some Japanese student, there is nothing Japanese visible (neither language nor even people), it’s far from Japan, not built by the Japanese, not targeted by the Emperor Showa as an objective for some World War II offensive, etc. File:Το εξώφυλλο του Македония, Етнография и Статистика.JPG used a piece of Greek text for the front page of a Bulgarian book about Ottoman Macedonia published in Bulgaria. Greek wasn’t neither official nor national in the Ottoman Empire, and less so in Bulgaria. File:Plaques tectoniques - légende.PNG was named in French, and not even «Plaques tectoniques - légende en anglais» that would be not that absurd. All these aberrations should be discouraged for the sake of accessibility, if not anything more.
It can be formalized as:
- The characters match literally an inscription depicted; example: File: ƎVITƆƎTƎᗡ (11001864453).jpg.
- It’s the same language as the main language of the media file (numerous examples here) or the original image in a set of images **
- The language or script has a strong connection with the things depicted; example: File:Ʒɑm.ogg (IPA).
- It is English and is written correctly (according to standards accepted by the community).
- International notation and abbreviations. *
The case 1. isn’t redundant because for such names as “ÒÏÓÓÉÑ, íÏÓË×Á,” there are no prescribed rules at all. It also will deter militant spelling checkers from tampering with such images as File:Calcium chlooide dihydrate.jpg.
This is, of course, yet a draft version of the proposal. Opinions? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:27, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
* Numerals (0–9, IVXLCDM), language codes, hyphen-minus (-), some other ASCII symbols (to be agreed upon, which namely). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 08:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
** Necessary for compatibility with Commons:File renaming #FR4. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I mean, such concretization is quite welcome. -- User: Perhelion 11:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Oppose Filenames are going to be in whichever language the *user* is most familiar with, most likely. If a Japanese tourist takes a photo of a building in Seattle, I don't see why the filename can't have Japanese it in it -- that will usually end up with the most accurate description since it is their primary language. I believe Japanese often uses Latin letters for foreign formal names, so I don't see how this is all that out of the ordinary anyways. This is a multilingual community, and uploaders should use the language they are most familiar with. It's only category names which need to be English-only, because there is no technical way to have category "aliases" I don't think, and we can't have multiple categories for the same concept. Commons:Language policy states explicitly that files can be named in any language; I would oppose anything that impedes the ability of users to use their native language. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Clindberg: just to explain my position better. This is not about persecution of uploaders. This is about improving accessibility of images for potential users. Redirects from names chosen by uploaders may persist, even from outright erroneous names. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:41, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- If you want to add a redirect *to* a file in another language, that is fine. That does not require renaming the file as originally uploaded. If redirects are good enough for the original name after being renamed, they should also be good enough for your preferred name as well *without* renaming the original. They should show up in search results as well, so it should make it just as easy for other users to find. If you want to add an English description in the file's description page, so they show up better in search results as well, fine. I don't see any of your examples as being good reasons to rename -- far from it, frankly. If a Greek uploader wants to use the original Bulgarian book title in the filename, while having the rest of the title in their tongue, fine. If a French user wants to title an image that way, since that is what they are more comfortable in using, even if English text, fine. This sounds like a policy to make things more accessible to English-speaking users. If a U.S. tourist visits Egypt and uploads a photo of the pyramids, should it be renamed in Arabic? If an English-speaking user wants to upload a series of maps in different languages, but have the filenames say "German", "Japanese", etc., is that OK or should they all use different-language names even if the uploader may not be fluent in them? Your policy suggestion has an explicit exception for English filenames, which seems to indicate it is an English-centered policy, which is contrary to existing policy. In short, we should avoid renaming if we can. I don't see how using different languages or scripts in filenames comes anywhere near being a good enough reason. I would always default to respecting the originally uploaded name. This policy even states: If possible, language and schema should be preserved, as well as the camera or catalogue number. Your policy suggestion seems to go directly against that. Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Clindberg: I accept your reasoning for cases like File:TCP header, bit scale.png (redirect) and, very reluctantly, for the case of Japanese tourist in Seattle. But all the three of their kanji, hiragana and katakana in one file name? Surely, Japan is a sovereign country and the people there can do whatever deems reasonable, but they are by a large margin a minority on Earth. But for the “preserve original” argument – why should we respect the choice of uploader, not author? Anyone who contributes to a work may have a vote about naming, but why should we preserve uploader’s Greek in a Bulgarian book? And can anyone imagine a book titled Plaques tectoniques but written entirely in English? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:23, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- If an English-speaking user happens to have a copy of a French book, scans the title page and uploads a file called "Title page of Les Misérables.jpg", would that be weird? That would make sense to me. I'm not sure why they should have to make the filename in French, when they may not know how to say "title page" etc. The file you mention was more accessible to Greek users -- if you change it to Bulgarian, you help Bulgarian users but (if the redirect is gone) you harm access to Greek users. And you changed it by removing the "title page" part of the filename and just used the name of the book -- including "title page" in the filename was more accurate, since it's not a .djvu of the entire book. There is also File:Macedonia ethnography and statistics.jpg, where a user uploaded the same thing basically, and titled the filename in English -- no problem with that either, if that is what they wanted, and they added a Bulgarian description. That whole area was Ottoman Empire, and was divided up between Bulgaria, Greece, and Macedonia (then part of Serbia) in the Balkan Wars -- there was even territory which was Ottoman, then Bulgarian, then at the end of WWI became Greek (and which Bulgaria occupied during WWII as well). I'm sure there is a mix of ethnicities in that area, which I'll never understand fully, so I would just leave what the uploader had. Almost by definition, any change we make will harm users of one language, and help users speaking another -- but policy is to be neutral on such matters, and the uploader's choice of filename is usually the best one to just leave alone (unless it has issues per the current reasons to rename). The preferred solution is to add descriptions in different languages to the file description page in the Info template. Adding redirects doesn't hurt anything, so those are fine too. I will always assume a Japanese user knows their language better than me, so if they use a mix of kanji, hirigana, and katakana, there must be a reason, etc. The Japanese part of the Seattle photo seems to say "arts & sciences", which is on the sign in the photo, but based on the recent rename the pictured sign may be to another neighboring building, which may mean that part of the title is wrong -- which in turn may be a reason to rename. Even then, if the uploader is still active, it may be best to describe the inaccuracy and ask what a preferred name would be. Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- Do I harm access [for] Greek users, really? Will a Greek speaker search this specific book with “Το εξώφυλλο”? Likely not. A Greek speaker may search book covers in general with “εξώφυλλο”, but it has very poor efficacy outside the Greek-language space, until some day the search engine managed to find the category by this search key (to which the question presented is irrelevant). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:05, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's very minor, but yes, that would be the search that would no longer find that file where it would have before. If searching for the book title, it would have found the file before as well. One note, the first result of that search finds an English-titled filename with a Greek description in the Information template, which is why that is the preferred method of increasing language accessibility, not filenames usually. Secondly, file renames break any external uses of files which directly link to the media file. For these reasons, renames should be minimized. The language an uploader uses is usually not a good enough reason for a rename -- adding language descriptions to the Info template would be the best, and adding redirects probably next best, in most cases. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Do I harm access [for] Greek users, really? Will a Greek speaker search this specific book with “Το εξώφυλλο”? Likely not. A Greek speaker may search book covers in general with “εξώφυλλο”, but it has very poor efficacy outside the Greek-language space, until some day the search engine managed to find the category by this search key (to which the question presented is irrelevant). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:05, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- If an English-speaking user happens to have a copy of a French book, scans the title page and uploads a file called "Title page of Les Misérables.jpg", would that be weird? That would make sense to me. I'm not sure why they should have to make the filename in French, when they may not know how to say "title page" etc. The file you mention was more accessible to Greek users -- if you change it to Bulgarian, you help Bulgarian users but (if the redirect is gone) you harm access to Greek users. And you changed it by removing the "title page" part of the filename and just used the name of the book -- including "title page" in the filename was more accurate, since it's not a .djvu of the entire book. There is also File:Macedonia ethnography and statistics.jpg, where a user uploaded the same thing basically, and titled the filename in English -- no problem with that either, if that is what they wanted, and they added a Bulgarian description. That whole area was Ottoman Empire, and was divided up between Bulgaria, Greece, and Macedonia (then part of Serbia) in the Balkan Wars -- there was even territory which was Ottoman, then Bulgarian, then at the end of WWI became Greek (and which Bulgaria occupied during WWII as well). I'm sure there is a mix of ethnicities in that area, which I'll never understand fully, so I would just leave what the uploader had. Almost by definition, any change we make will harm users of one language, and help users speaking another -- but policy is to be neutral on such matters, and the uploader's choice of filename is usually the best one to just leave alone (unless it has issues per the current reasons to rename). The preferred solution is to add descriptions in different languages to the file description page in the Info template. Adding redirects doesn't hurt anything, so those are fine too. I will always assume a Japanese user knows their language better than me, so if they use a mix of kanji, hirigana, and katakana, there must be a reason, etc. The Japanese part of the Seattle photo seems to say "arts & sciences", which is on the sign in the photo, but based on the recent rename the pictured sign may be to another neighboring building, which may mean that part of the title is wrong -- which in turn may be a reason to rename. Even then, if the uploader is still active, it may be best to describe the inaccuracy and ask what a preferred name would be. Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Clindberg: I accept your reasoning for cases like File:TCP header, bit scale.png (redirect) and, very reluctantly, for the case of Japanese tourist in Seattle. But all the three of their kanji, hiragana and katakana in one file name? Surely, Japan is a sovereign country and the people there can do whatever deems reasonable, but they are by a large margin a minority on Earth. But for the “preserve original” argument – why should we respect the choice of uploader, not author? Anyone who contributes to a work may have a vote about naming, but why should we preserve uploader’s Greek in a Bulgarian book? And can anyone imagine a book titled Plaques tectoniques but written entirely in English? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:23, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
- If you want to add a redirect *to* a file in another language, that is fine. That does not require renaming the file as originally uploaded. If redirects are good enough for the original name after being renamed, they should also be good enough for your preferred name as well *without* renaming the original. They should show up in search results as well, so it should make it just as easy for other users to find. If you want to add an English description in the file's description page, so they show up better in search results as well, fine. I don't see any of your examples as being good reasons to rename -- far from it, frankly. If a Greek uploader wants to use the original Bulgarian book title in the filename, while having the rest of the title in their tongue, fine. If a French user wants to title an image that way, since that is what they are more comfortable in using, even if English text, fine. This sounds like a policy to make things more accessible to English-speaking users. If a U.S. tourist visits Egypt and uploads a photo of the pyramids, should it be renamed in Arabic? If an English-speaking user wants to upload a series of maps in different languages, but have the filenames say "German", "Japanese", etc., is that OK or should they all use different-language names even if the uploader may not be fluent in them? Your policy suggestion has an explicit exception for English filenames, which seems to indicate it is an English-centered policy, which is contrary to existing policy. In short, we should avoid renaming if we can. I don't see how using different languages or scripts in filenames comes anywhere near being a good enough reason. I would always default to respecting the originally uploaded name. This policy even states: If possible, language and schema should be preserved, as well as the camera or catalogue number. Your policy suggestion seems to go directly against that. Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Template display problem
User @*angys*: requested a rename and the template display broke because of the * in the user's name: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Pavillion_KL_2017.jpg&oldid=281883411. Is there a workaround for this? // siqbal { talk } 21:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is a bug is the {{User}} family of templates. Trying to find what namely can be done for cheap to avoid problems with {{Rename}}. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 22:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Done Revision of Template:Userlinks2.0. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 22:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. // siqbal { talk } 22:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
.jpg){kind=link}
Renaming reason
I found a picture with the extension .JPG. Is it allowed to ask for a renaming to .jpg? QZanden (talk) 18:26, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @QZanden: if this is the only reason to change the file name, then don’t do it, please. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Incnis Mrsi: thanks for the quick reply, then I won't ask for a renaming. QZanden (talk) 18:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Capitalization by original uploader
Should we fulfill a rename request by the original uploader (criterion#1) when the only change requested is capitalization (criterion#1 to decline)? File:Retablo de San Salvador de los Escapulados (Peñafiel).jpg is an example. At first, I declined it. Then, I accepted it due to insistence. I fixed the criterion however (3 --> 1). 4nn1l2 (talk) 10:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
.jpg){kind=link}
.jpg&diff=300096329&oldid=299953227){kind=link}
- @4nn1l2: Since it doesn't say otherwise, I think we should honor every reasonable request that does not violate our naming guidelines. Sebari – aka Srittau (talk) 14:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Criterion 1 translation
Hello, I see that the translation between the french and the english version @AlvaroMolina and Wargaz: of the first criterion 1 is not good :
- fr A la demande du televerseur
- en : At the original uploader’s request
Which version is good ? Olivier LPB (talk) 08:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- I guess that it intends to say "the original uploader (of the current version)". You can try to submit a renaming request with criterion 1 on a file which you never uploaded before, and it would remind you that "Be honest: You are not the uploader". I can select criterion 1, thus the wiki regnoized me as the original uploader already. --Wargaz (talk) 08:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- @AlvaroMolina: , apology for "bumping" into this conversation, but you might take a look at téléverseur. Hope that is helpful. Lotje (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- In fact the problem is for : "original" Olivier LPB (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Olivier LPB: if you show me the context, I might be able to find out where to look for a proper solution. Thank you for your time. :-) Lotje (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just noticed ceux dont vous êtes l'importateur, une solution élégante --> combine both? Lotje (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here we spoke about the french wikipedia. I just want to know of the uploader is for the first version or for all the version. Olivier LPB (talk) 15:22, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, now I see, sorry I could not be of any help. You might wish to try at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard. Lotje (talk) 15:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here we spoke about the french wikipedia. I just want to know of the uploader is for the first version or for all the version. Olivier LPB (talk) 15:22, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- I just noticed ceux dont vous êtes l'importateur, une solution élégante --> combine both? Lotje (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Olivier LPB: if you show me the context, I might be able to find out where to look for a proper solution. Thank you for your time. :-) Lotje (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- In fact the problem is for : "original" Olivier LPB (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- @AlvaroMolina: , apology for "bumping" into this conversation, but you might take a look at téléverseur. Hope that is helpful.