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- Poco, I think you've been here long enough to not expect oppose votes to be sugar coated. Clearly some people, myself included, aren't "getting it". While I can see that you are looking up the winding river valley, so that's why you pointed the camera this way, the elements of the composition aren't quite fitting. There isn't really a focal point for the eye, hence perhaps the "random" comments. It isn't to my mind going beyond the snap any tourist might quickly take at a lay-by. Ikan's litter justification is really stretching photographic review excuses -- one could say that sort of thing about any view spoiled in some way. Considering the continuous stream of nominations from you, Poco, the fact that this image is three years old tells me it isn't really one you regard as among your finest. You take great photos, so I don't know why Ikan has to scrape the barrel here. -- Colin (talk) 16:46, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Because I obviously don't agree with you that I'm "scraping the barrel". Nor do I agree in the slightest that there's anything "random" about the form. It's good for you to give a clear analysis of your opinion, but going further and assuming that others (7 people so far) couldn't possibly have a different, thought-through reaction, which is the way I (mis-?)read your comment above, is not reasonable. As for the garbage, if you don't like the idea of it as an object lesson, my response would be simply that it's there and it's part of what I consider a great composition. I don't go by the original ancient Roman ideal of landscapes as an idealized version of countryside views for the exclusive use of people who live in cities, too far away from the countryside to view it from their homes or properties. We're well beyond that time now, having gone through a series of Modernist periods. As you know, I tend to judge photographic compositions to a large degree as I judge paintings: I move my eyes around the picture frame to experience a linear arabesque. In this case, I also enjoy the contours of the topography, yes, the trees, the mist - all of it. It doesn't speak to you. As we say in the U.S., that's what makes horse racing (maybe you have the same expression in Scotland). I saw this photo relatively recently at QIC, and Poco has a very long backlog of photos that he'd like to be nominated for FP, so I doubt that your deduction about the implications of the photo being 3 years old really holds water, but of course Poco can address that himself if he so chooses. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Ikan only five people, other that yourself and Poco, supported it and four oppose. That's a pretty dreadful ratio for FPC. Considering Pocos good photos tend to get 10 solid support within hours, this is certainly and without any question "scraping the barrel" when it comes to Poco nominations. If this is really the best that you can come up with, of all the images by Commons FPC regulars, and by others we are less familiar with, then I rather despair for the project. I think you misunderstand Poco's list of potential FPs. It isn't, as I understand it, "photos that he'd like to be nominated for FP", but ones he's at some point in time when he uploaded them, considered might be worth a punt some day. Having sat on this one for three years, it certainly and without any question, isn't one of the ones that jump out at him and say "pick me pick me" every time he looks at it. It's all very nice for Poco to get a free extra vote when you nominate from his backlog. The rest of FPC crowd, who mostly nominate their own works, have to make do with earning six other supports rather than five. It isn't as though there's a shortage of great images on Commons that haven't been nominated yet. I don't, for the record, assume others "couldn't possibly have a different, thought-through reaction", that's why I wrote "some people..aren't getting it", rather than "anyone with eyes in their head can obviously see that...". FP is about picking the finest, not just working through some list of images Poco has likely seen and passed on many times already.
- Ikan, I rather suspect you could pick the "random file" link on the left side of Commons, and make an argument about how you really like the image, how you love to move your eyes about it while experiencing a linear arabesque, and that the glaring defects serve as as some kind of lesson to society. -- Colin (talk) 21:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, will keep it short. First, the fact (and that is one) that oppose votes are not sugar coated is fine to me. Being rude or disrespectful to nominators, author, etc. is different and having been like this for a while doesn't mean that it is fine and we should keep on doing it. My opinion.
- Ikan didn't get this image from my "FP candidates by User:Poco a poco" category (as it isn't included there), but, as he said, saw it recently in QI. I guess that the story is straightforward: he saw it, he liked it, he nominated it. Period. I do have a big backlog of images where I see some potential to FP (the cat mentioned earlier), some of them I take back later, some I propose, I do not definitely believe that everything in that cat should become FP. I recently nominated a picture from Machu Picchu, 2 years old, 20 votes, all supports and a picture from Cambodia, 4 years old, 12 votes, all supports. Therefore I don't necessarily see a link between the age of the nominated pictures and the likelihood to become FP, the barrel is probably still half full...Poco2 22:17, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoaaaa, my apologies! Didn't want to start a firestorm but yes, I think the scene depicted is pretty random (in the most non-offensive way possible), especially in in light of your other work that pops up on FPC. I disagree about the extra vote argument, 95% of your pics don't need it and the rest don't pass even with - save for the odd exception every once in a blue moon. And I hope the barrel is more than half full and glad to see you didn't stop uploading after the "Arabic-incident". :) -- KennyOMG (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Colin, I'm not an "extra vote" just because I chose to nominate a photo, and it strikes me as really disrespectful for you to imply that I pick photos completely randomly and don't have any standards (your "random file" stuff, which to me is really nasty crap, my friend). You should instead have enough respect to view my standards as different from yours even if you violently disagree with them. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Ikan, I didn't say you picked photos at random. I don't suggest you have no standards. What I am suggesting is that you are perfectly capable of taking a "meh" image that has some likable qualities, persuading yourself that it is great, and writing some arty nonsense about linear arabeques and how you love moving your eyes about the image. We've seen that line on many failed nominations. The fact that photo wasn't framed well enough to avoid the lay-by garbage is simply a photographic failure. Your nomination excuse for it is really rather desperate.
- Poco, you know I regard you as one of the finest photographers here, and your record at FP confirms that. Kenny's vote was blunt but was about the image, nothing more, and to claim it was "disrespectful" implies you want some sugar coating and for us all to praise you before delivering the bad news. Do we have to begin every oppose with "With the greatest respect to my fellow reviewers who have supported this image, and to this fine photographer who's work I have often praised, I'm sorry to say ...". I didn't mention the backlog until Ikan's rather strange comment that "Poco has a very long backlog of photos that he'd like to be nominated for FP" which, the way it is worded, suggests it is maintained for the purpose of attracting bonus nominations by others, which I doubt is your intention. The fact that you can find some old images in your backlog that do well at FPC doesn't really form any kind of scientific argument against the fairly obvious reasoning that great images will tend to be nominated quickly and weak images sit on the pile (which has 458 images). Poco, if you want to show respect to your fellow contributors here, who tirelessly review your images in a constant stream, who don't always word their reviews as carefully/respectfully as you might want, then you could vote at FPC. Last time you voted on an image that didn't have "DD" in its filename was February. -- Colin (talk)
- Colin, I understand your point better, but really, my remark is "rather desperate"? If so, what about my remark on the nomination just above this, which looks likely to be very quickly voted in by overwhelming consensus? I'm still pretty annoyed at you, as I think of all kinds of great art that's very frank and doesn't avoid the ugly parts of reality (not an "excuse" or "arty nonsense", but decades of modernist works going all the way back to the frank depictions of factories and smokestack emissions in Impressionist art, and I don't have to go further afield than "Impression:Aube" for that), but I do respect your right to have a strong and vociferous opinion and paid a lot of attention to things you told me before, with improved results you seem to be ignoring. Remember, though, that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar... -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:25, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Your remark on the nomination above is fine: you aren't "desperately" trying to turn a defect into a strength, and are pretty honest about the weaknesses. And you know I approve of nominators giving an explanation of why they think the image is worth featuring. I'm all for depicting the "ugly parts of reality" but if we're discussing "art" then really it has to be the intention of the artist and then in this forum at least, for there to be some consensus that the artist has achieved that aim. I really honestly don't think Poco took this photo of the low cloud in a valley in Serbia in order to make some social point about people leaving litter in lay-byes. -- Colin (talk) 10:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I now understand and take your point on this. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Colin: I'm not made of butter, I don't ask for something like "With the greatest respect to my fellow reviewers who have supported this image, and to this fine photographer who's work I have often praised, I'm sorry to say ..." but I'd just like to remind to everybody that behind each picture there is a photographer who intended to show something to the viewer. "Random" means to me something like pressing the shutter buttom without any criteria, and that's something I gave up doing 20 years ago.
- You surely are right when you criticize that I haven't participated in FPC for months, so I did it today and will continue doing it until I I run into troubles once more for expressing my honest opinion. You don't mind investing hours in discussions about who is right and why, and I respect that, but that's exactly what I am not ready to do here. I rather spend my time elsewhere. Poco2 12:22, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- KennyOMG: Sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't uploaded any new images on Commons since March, just on flickr. My submission for Wikimania to tackle the problems listed on my user page in a workshop was rejected. It looks like unfortunately community topics have been reduced to the minimum in the programme, which agains make me think that nobody cares... Poco2 12:22, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "until I run into troubles once more for expressing my honest opinion". It is perfectly posible to find and valid to state that one finds this composition "random". Your defence that the image was not randomly taken isn't, I'm afraid, any defence at all. Respect works both ways, Poco. -- Colin (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't look for any defence and wouldn't know why I'd have to, Colin and I do considere myself respectful towards others. Can you leave it here, it doesn't go anywhere. Poco2 18:39, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Info created & uploaded by Diego Delso - nominated by User:Ikan Kekek -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Support - I think this is a great photo, and I'd like to argue preemptively against any suggestion of cropping or retouching the photo so as to eliminate the garbage from the near left corner. I think it serves as both a contrast to the beautiful natural scene and a visual lesson to people to stop littering. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Oppose Not seeing what is special here. Perhaps I am used to damp weather in Scotland. Bare trees, and not especially sharp image, with the lighting so diffused there is little contrast. -- Colin (talk) 15:14, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment - To me, the mist is a feature, not a bug, but I also really like the the form, with its topography. But it's inescapable that scenes that are usual for any of us tend not to produce a feeling of wow, so I understand your reaction completely. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
I withdraw my nomination Thanks for your comments. I continue not to understand why anyone would find this composition random, but I do understand the criticism about the garbage. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
