Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Goat Slaughter for Christmas Dinner- A Margarita Island Tradition.jpg

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File:Goat Slaughter for Christmas Dinner- A Margarita Island Tradition.jpg, not featured[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes.Voting period ends on 11 Dec 2023 at 22:42:20 (UTC)
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NSFWTAGGoat Slaughter for Christmas Dinner- A Margarita Island Tradition
  • Gallery: Commons:Featured pictures/Food and drink#Food : Processing, preparing and cooking
  •  Info I have corrected errors present in a previous nomination. The image of the goat slaughter for Christmas dinner on Margarita Island, Venezuela, imho deserves to be highlighted for its documentary and educational value, as it captures a significant century-old cultural tradition in the region. It offers a window into cultural practices that may be unknown to many, allowing for a deeper understanding of customs and ways of life in different parts of the world. Additionally, it reflects the reality of how food is obtained in various cultures, a truth often hidden in modern society. The visual representation, even though stark, of these traditions plays a relevant role in preserving and understanding cultural diversity and global food practices. All by -- Wilfredor (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Appended {{Nsfw}} to this image. Please remember to do so for future graphic nominations, Wilfredor. --SHB2000 (talk) 03:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I didn't know about this template--Wilfredor (talk) 03:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem :-). I'm glad I was able to help. --SHB2000 (talk) 08:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment You should mention that you nominated this before. I think it's fine to feature a photo of a slaughter, and thought so when it was last nominated, but I don't understand why you would expect a different outcome this time. Could you please explain? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In my nomination comment, I wrote "I have corrected errors present in a previous nomination." This indicates that there was a prior nomination and I addressed the issues noted in the old nomination that led to its rejection. In the previous version (see the history), there was a shirt that stood out and disrupted the composition, which I have now removed. --Wilfredor (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Alright, I'll support this as a good composition and well-executed photograph of something I think particularly people who eat meat should see and consider, but my recollection is that the main reason your previous nomination was rejected is that even many meat-eaters find it gross to look at an image of how meat is produced. (After looking at the relevant thread, I see that 4 of the 7 opposing votes were based at least partly on objection to the subject matter, as opposed to 6 supporting votes.) I think the previous FPC nomination thread may be relevant: Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Goat killed at Christmas Lunch.jpg. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This animal was a very loved animal and treated like a domestic dog would be treated. --Wilfredor (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Spanish the party has the same name and refers to the family reunion and sharing at the end of the year. --Wilfredor (talk) 19:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Culinary : The same knife cutting vegetables or fruits would be more educational, in my opinion 🥕🥑🍉. For the environment, since the biggest part of the production of cereals is used to feed farm animals, the meat consumption should be reduced on the planet. The pot of blood makes me think it's going to go on the stove, and this dish doesn't seem appetizing to me at all (matter of taste maybe).
Wow factor : unpleasant image to look at, in my view. I don't find any aesthetic in this content. Bland colors, focus on the blood, defenseless animal, just an unpleasant and repelling sight. Sure, you need strong nerves to cut an animal's neck like a butcher, but it's also violent, and not a practice that I personally encourage, nor admire, nor take pleasure in watching, even for the adrenaline.
Ethics : If necessary to kill an animal, I always prefer to see them knocked out beforehand. As when a surgeon operates they usually give you a numbing shot. Animal welfare could be considered here. Hedonism is a philosophy that I feel close to, and here I take no pleasure in seeing this animal blocked and drowned in his blood. Although you can explain me that a bunch of hungry people are waiting around the table for their Christmas feast, these are not the happy people shown here, nor even the "fair deal" -- Basile Morin (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The DOF is in the hand because it is the action that is being performed. The depiction of an animal prepared for consumption, although disturbing to some, is an honest representation of a practice that is part of many cultures and livelihoods. The representation of an animal prepared for consumption can open a dialogue about ethical meat consumption and animal welfare. It challenges viewers to consider the realities behind their food choices and to think about how animals are treated throughout the food production process. It is true that the image may be crude, it can also serve as a reminder of the importance of human practices in meat production and the respect that must be given to the animals that are part of this process.--Wilfredor (talk) 05:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Focus : Hand in focus, but not the eye (important element). The photographer could get both in focus (like here). Shallow DoF. Aperture f/5.6, probably not enough. Or not the best angle.
What would "challenge" people in questioning their practice would be to show different solutions, like cultured meat, insects as food, or vegetarian cuisine in my opinion -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Photos of vegetarian cuisine don't challenge meat-eaters because many of them gladly have some vegetarian meals. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many meat eaters would love to change their culinary habits, but the diversity of dishes often appear limited. Appetizing dishes made of vegetables would only suggest to try the same at home. Same when a delicious vegetarian restaurant becomes famous, you often want to try, to taste what is inside, to learn how it is prepared -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Basile, your comment limits culinary education, it is also important to recognize the role of meat in various cultures and diets, while the image in question may not be to everyone's taste, it offers an honest depiction, encouraging important conversations about ethical food practices and sustainable, portraying the realities of meat preparation, including the uncomfortable aspects, is super important for a transparent understanding of our food systems. People need to be aware of the entire process, including aspects that may feel raw Wilfredor (talk) 06:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, you can wrap your "slaughter" in a pretty gift package with a pink ribbon 🎁, I'm not likely to find it more aesthetically pleasing, not technically better.
Please also consider changing your gallery to Food and drink#Food : Processing, preparing and cooking if you think it's about food preparation. Because currently your chosen gallery is "Animals/Mammals/Artiodactyla#Family : Bovidae (Bovids)". A template {{Retouched}} also seems adequate according to the history of the image.
My comment limits to the FP label. I never said the image was a fair candidate for deletion, I just dislike looking at it, so I tried to find the words to explain rationally my feelings. Anyone is free to disagree of course, and you're free to love your own artwork.
I totally understand and respect concise opinions too. Certainly different ways to send the same message. Best regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 06:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment Basile is right about the gallery, this photo is about food. I have fixed that now. That is also kinder to viewers who go looking for cute goats in the animal section. Food preparation in its basic form is seldom pretty, and most people are too far removed from it. I see no cruelty in this. It is very much like the scenes we had here in our countryside not very long ago, when the Christmas pig was slaughtered. (Some still do and I've helped; it's a lot of work.) Same technique, there is even a special name for it in Swedish "sticka grisen". Any hunter will do the same with their kill. You only have a few minutes to drain the blood, or it will coagulate and make the meat rigid. Stabbing the throat while the animal is hanging upside down, is the most effective way to do this. Collecting the blood in a bucket is also a "waste nothing" measure. During the draining of the animal, the blood in the bowl is whipped by an assistant to separate the coagulating component that can spoil it too fast, from the main part of the liquid. The blood is then used to make blackpudding, sausages or soup. I'm also very ok with the file name. In many cultures, 'Christmas' is a generic name for the whole season and not just for a few special days; and the date of the most special day of that season also varies. The focus on the hand is also correct, since this image is about the process of slaughter, not an animal photo. To put it bluntly: At this point we are looking at meat, not an animal, so the eye is unimportant. The arterial sprouting that stained the goat's cheek has subsided and the animal is gone. --Cart (talk) 10:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Thanks to everyone on this discussion group for your reviews and thoughts on the image. I once visited the Disgusting Food Museum, where you could also see the extremely inhumane, brutal behavior that humans inflict on animals. When I left the museum, I felt sick for the rest of the day and I skipped dinner. It took me a while to absorb what I had seen. It is difficult for me to promote the image for ethical reasons, but slaughter is a brutal part of human civilization. From a documentary point of view, as part of everyday life, I decided to support this work. -- Radomianin (talk) 12:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment I've been a vegetarian for my entire adult life but, much like Radomianin, would like to put feelings aside and support the image. Why doesn't it have a {{Retouched}} template though, as Basile suggested? Wilfredor, these nominations feel like Groundhog Day, with an endless stream of non-declared image and text manipulations. --Julesvernex2 (talk) 14:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    ✓ Done I clearly remember that movie where it repeats itself every day. I have added the template, just as I had already added a comment in the history. Thanks Wilfredor (talk) 14:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose The photo is certainly unique, but too many parts are blurred, apart from the focus, even on the animal's head, particularly towards the eyes... In addition, the person's arm is too much distracting . So yes, it may be a difficult photo to take, because you can't easily reshoot the photo, but on a technical level, it's just worth the IQ label for me. --Sebring12Hrs (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The photography we are discussing presents not juste a unique and artistic purpose, which deserves to be understood in its context. Capturing the exact moment of an animal in its last moments of life is not a simple task; We are dealing with a living being in a state of intense agitation, not with an inert, static object. This, of course, influences the technique and the final result of the image. First, let's talk about focus. What might be perceived as a lack of sharpness is actually a decision known as Depth of Field (DoF). This technique involves selectively focusing certain areas of the image while blurring others. In this specific case, the use of DoF is not accidental but intentional, and is intended to highlight the main element of the scene: the action of the slaughter. If you check out Cart's comment, you'll see that this effect is often used to direct the viewer's attention to the narrative focus of the image. Regarding the presence of arms in the composition, it is essential to understand the practical and realistic context of the situation. We are facing an animal that, by nature, resists in its last moments. The need to hold it is not only a matter of procedure but also an integral part of the composition of the image. The arms you see in the photograph are not an accidental intrusion, but a necessary representation of the reality of the situation Wilfredor (talk) 20:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it getting ridiculous what a fuss is made about a mediocre picture of cutting an animal's throat? Do I get it right? The goat has been kept as a pet, like a dog, therefore it's killed before (or after?) Christmas, the image is highly educational (???), and in fact, every carnivore wikimedian should study it to either understand different cultures or at least become a political correct vergetarian. And then these overdone AI explanations by the nominator which cannot persuade me to search the "narrative focus of the image". Believing several comments above, the image has quite a few technical issues. I can't support these opinions, as I'm not really willing to have a closer look at this picture. --Palauenc05 (talk) 21:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose! The picture is disgusting. In my opinion it would be absurd to think about any possible artistic value or to point out the difficulties of taking such a photo. In reality, no one needs such an image, even though there may be people who can find amusement in the suffering of animals. I am also a meat eater, but to see the killing of an animal as an aesthetic pleasure is, in my opinion, abnormal. -- Spurzem (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Precisely for this reason this image must be shown to show what many want to hide or are uncomfortable with accepting that behind a piece of meat there is a cruelly killed animal. This is nothing artistic Wilfredor (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, but you aren't going to win this argument in this forum. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I know this, I am not trying to win anything, I am aware that FPC is fundamentally a Westernized and mainly European vision. My intention is not to win FPCs, but to post topics that encourage reflection instead of photos of architectural constructions. Many of my photos involve underdeveloped culture Wilfredor (talk) 23:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support - ABAL1412🇻🇳🇸🇺🇷🇺 (talk ☭) 18:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support there's no rule anywhere that says that FPs must be pretty, or even pleasant to look at. Different standards apply for different genres. This is documentary photography. Its purpose is not to make a nice picture you'd like to hang on your wall. Its purpose is to show a part of reality, and ideally make you think. Until very, very recently, this kind of view has been 100% normal pretty much anywhere on the planet, and in many, many places it still is. Does it make you uncomfortable? Do you feel superior when you say "this is wrong"? What does that tell you about the society you live in? Is it wrong? What is "normal" anyway? Maybe you are abnormal if you get scared by a little bit of blood and death? Is there any point in worrying about a couple of goats here and there, don't we have much bigger fish to fry? Thinking of it, what's the point in worrying about a single little planet in an infinite universe full of galaxies full of solar systems full of planets? Does anything actually matter? --El Grafo (talk) 09:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Since you start to talk morals and the bigger fish ... I fully agree with you, first of all. And I want to add that I often wonder how images about beautifully depicted war planes, big cars and so on don't get the same kind of moral discussion ... aren't they also part of the bigger picture? Kritzolina (talk) 09:50, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You guys seem to be mixing moral judgements of the image with moral judgements of its voters. In my view, the former is useful but the latter is not. Note how the discussion above, despite stirring up strong emotions, focuses overwhelmingly on the image and not on those holding different opinions. --Julesvernex2 (talk) 10:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, I'm not judging anyone but myself here. The point I'm trying to make above is that this is a documentary photograph and it is supposed to stir you up a bit. The questions I wrote down reflect thoughts I was personally pondering while digesting the image (maybe I should have used "me" instead of "you", but I thought it might resonate better that way). For some of these questions I found an answer I didn't like, for some I may never find one – and I'm OK with that. It's very thought-provoking image. El Grafo (talk) 11:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose Good capture of what's intended to show, but no wow. --Milseburg (talk) 16:53, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support It may be crude but it is useful to raise awareness of how the death of an animal can be more terrible than many people think when buying their pieces of meat in the supermarket. --Wilfredor (talk) 21:45, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support --RodRabelo7 (talk) 02:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  ambivalent - Unlike, for example, the pacu jawi and bullfighting images nominated in the past, it's hard to say this glorifies animal cruelty. It's the preparation of food in all its bloody reality. It's also a frank, direct depiction of that reality. The thing is, because it's a close-up, it could be anywhere. It doesn't really depict a cultural tradition. So there's value in a frank, direct depiction of the reality of slaughtering a goat, but I don't know if there's enough "wow" there for me. — Rhododendrites talk |  02:27, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose Per my comment above, nothing really 'wrong' with the photo, it's a good "how to" photo, just missing the wow or that extra emotion a great photo should deliver. --Cart (talk) 10:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmed results:
Result: 11 support, 8 oppose, 1 neutral → not featured. /Basile Morin (talk) 05:17, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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