Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:2017.08.14.-01-Kaefertaler Wald-Mannheim--Streifenwanze-Paarung.jpg

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File:2017.08.14.-01-Kaefertaler Wald-Mannheim--Streifenwanze-Paarung.jpg, featured[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes.Voting period ends on 3 Dec 2019 at 09:34:20 (UTC)
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Graphosoma lineatum, mating
  •  Info It is not tilted. I always use the spirit level. Maybe it seems to be because of the other perspective. When I would rotate it, it would look as if the bugs would about fall off. The distance to the camera was over one meter but the size of the subject is still big enough according the guideline. --Hockei (talk) 11:28, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not quite clear for me. Distinction due to the body colour is problematic because of different lighting conditions. The colour of the legs of G. italicum is only "mostly black" not always. In German I couldn't find a differentiation between G. lineatum and G. italicum. Look at here the pictures of G. lineatum. G. italicum doesn't seem to exist. Just in the en wikipedia. Maybe I could write to an expert. But aware the answer will take a while. --Hockei (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi guys, I beg to differ, G. lineatum and G. italicum are two distincts species. See that paper. They made a genetic comparison of italicum and lineatum. The paper is in french though, which is probably not helping to spread the word... They are 2 different populations italicum is found in continental Europe and has mostly black legs, while lineatum is only found in north Africa and has red legs. With a twist for the populations of Sicily and Sardinia, that have their own sub-species. The genetic study also finds that G. rubrolineatum, from East Asia, is actually a closer relative to italicum than lineatum is with italicum. Unless there has been a more recent study proving otherwise, we have to consider G. italicum and G. lineatum as distinct species--Hiouf (talk) 12:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Info @Hiouf and Touam: The genetic test alone is not suitable for dividing this species into two different species. Because then millions of specieses would have to be redefined in different species, subspecies, sub-subspecies and so on. Would you say that, for example, Asians, Europeans and Africans are different species of humans? Because we all have different genes. I don’t think so. Do G. lineatum and G. italicum have overlaps of there habitat? I think so. Can G. lineatum and G. italicum together produce offspring that are capable of reproduction? I think so. So you cannot speak about different species but at most about varieties. You can write and speak in the French and English wikipedia what you want. But in Germany this is not scientifically recognized. It remains with Graphosoma lineatum.
  • Hi @Hockei: The genetic test is a very strong test to ID a species (1,2,3,4). The scientific community is using it extensively, and has even created recently a consortium to support the developement of DNA barcoding (5,6). And yes, you are right, there are probably thousands of species, if not more, that we may have wrongly classified, some taxa to merge, some to split into different species or even higher taxonomic levels(7). There are literally tons of papers on DNA barcoding, I've put only a few as references. Of course, splitting or not a species depends on the genetic distance between populations. Humans are all genetically of the same species because the genetic variability inter-population is not significant (counts for about 10% of the variability) compared to the intra-population (the other 90%) (8,9,10). Coming back the Graphosoma case, we have 1) two populations that are geographically separated without overlaps (italicum in Europe and lineatum in North Africa); 2) distincts morphological characteristics that are specific to the European and African populations ; and 3) a genetic distance that supports the morphological and biogeographical evidences (11). The ulimate test would be inter-breeding, but to my knowledge no one has done it, and I doubt anyone will as this is very time-consuming. So based on the previously mentionned evidences, we have here all the reasons to think those are different species (until proven otherwise). There are many other examples, Eurygaster maura/testudinaria or Carpocoris mediterraneus/fuscispinus. Last but not least, if you or the German scientific community think we should stick to G. lineatum, why not, but it would be great to hear why and present a strong case contradicting the latest published works. Saying "I think so" or "I don't think so" is not quite enough scientifically speaking. Hope you can re-consider this case, I definitely would if new light is shed. Cheers.--Hiouf (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hiouf: Hi again. You can forget "I think so". The main question still remains to be answered. I have previously talked to a bug expert and independently of him with a biologist. So it does not change my position. Anyway. We should end the discussion hereby. How the species are to be determined, scientists and biologists have to agree on. Certainly not both of us. And besides, here in FPC anyway is not the right place. Have a nice evening. --Hockei (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I'm sorry, I don't understand englih, please excuse me. --Touam (talk) 17:12, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, a mistake. I wanted to ping Hiouf. --Hockei (talk) 17:34, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi @Hockei: you talked to specialists, I talked with a couple of Pentatomoidea experts too. I've also seen discussion with a third entomologist who changed his mind on this topic after the last paper. But this is not about who has the most experts on his side, this doesn't lead us anywhere. Although on a personal note, I would be curious what are the arguments of your expert to challenge the morphological, geographical and genetic evidences. I agree here with you that the decision is anyway left to taxinomists. I'm looking forward any new paper to see how it evolves. But if there are not, what does it mean, that everyone agrees with Lupoli, 2017 ? This question has been debated for more than 100 years, I guess it'll take another few years to have a clear consensus (or not) ;).--Hiouf (talk) 07:54, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi @Hockei: I would like to share with you 2 things I thought you might find interesting. The first one is a paper by Berend Aukema, a dutch Pentatomoidea specialist, and head curator of Fauna Europaea. In his paper from July 2019 (here), he confirms the validity of G. italicum as a distinct species. The second one is a photo (here) taken by Paride Dioli, showing a G. semipuctatum and a G. italicum in copula. However, we don't know if the mating produced offsprings. P. Dioli is an italian entomologist, who was a believer of the synonymy between lineatum and italicum, but has now agreed on the validity of italicum after the molecular analysis. In the comments of this photo, there is a very interesting discussion between P. Dioli and R. Lupoli (who made the molecular analysis back in 2017). This discussion suggests we have still to learn about the population of Sardinia and Sicily.
Confirmed results:
Result: 23 support, 0 oppose, 0 neutral → featured. /--A.Savin 14:44, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This image will be added to the FP gallery: Animals/Arthropods#Family : Pentatomidae (Pentatomids)
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