Category talk:Wales

With regards to: this deletion by 79.156.189.253 (from Spain!), take notice that Wales is indeed a country, it is also in Europe; therefore Category:Countries in Europe is correct here. It also has Category:Countries in the United Kingdom, as that is also true. And as we all know, a category can belong to several categories. If you have any questions regarding this, please make your point here, rather than changing again. Thanks. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 09:39, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

@83.41.227.93 and 79.156.189.253: The same user, from Algemesi, Spain with a different IP. Please read the above comments before deleting the category. You say in your edit 'Wales and Scotland are included in the United Kingdom as a country of Europe'. Yes, I agree, they are, but they are also countries within Europe. If you disagree that Wales is a country, then please site your sources first. Thanks. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:13, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

And another! 79.156.188.153 How do we stop this madness? Of course Wales is a country within Europe (and the world) as well as UK. Sian EJ (talk) 09:03, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Parent categories (Wales in Europe) as well as a sister category (UK)

Before you start deleting parent categories relevant to Wales (such as this one), please read this:

COM:OVERCAT does not over-ride the backbone of Wikimedia projects, sources; it is not sacrosanct, and has exceptions. Some editors are deleting the parent category such as [[:Category:Mathematicians by country|Wales]] from articles such as [[:Category:Mathematicians from Wales]].

Example Category:Finland has the following categories: Category:Countries of Europe, Category:The Nordic region|+ Finland, Category:Members of the European Union, Category:Northern Europe, Category:Subpolar regions, Category:Countries by name and Category:Subarctic. Here there are more than one parent categories, which goes against COM:OVERCAT, but is in line with the real world (solid references to solid sources). COM:OVERCAT needs to include further exceptions, such as these.

In the same manner, all sources dictate that Wales is a country, and that country is within Europe. It's not a sub-country, it's not a region, it's a country and a nation. See: w:Talk:Wales: The issue of whether Wales is a country or not has been repeatedly raised:

The result of all these debates is that Wales is indeed a country. This has been confirmed in formal mediation. The discussion is summarised in this archive here.

If this poll is not acceptable by Commons, then I shall open a new one, but the same conclusion will be reached, as the sources all agree that Wales is in fact a country.

Wikimedia Commons does not restrict the definition of 'country' to 'States defined by UNESCO / UN'. All countries are countries. Wales is a country within geographical Europe; it is also a country within the United Kingdom, and the sources also agree with this.

It is therefore right for all categories pertinent to Wales to have both categories eg Category:Mathematicians from Wales should have both Category:Mathematicians from the United Kingdom and Category:Mathematicians by country|Wales. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 13:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

@Synthwave.94: Hi. I suggested on your talk page that you gave your reasons for deleting Category Wales as a country here. You say on your talk page that only 'independent' countries should be allowed as categories. Where has this been agreed on Commons? And to what degree of independence? Nowhere has this been discussed, as far as I know. Wales is a country, end of. Nothing else comes into it. All sources agree with that, so your statement is very political, and incorrect. And as for 'consistency with Scotland and England', please feel free to add both categories on articles relevant to Scotland and England. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: The only clear consensus I could see so far is that it should be called a country, not a country of Europe, and it may be the reason why it's not listed along with other countries of Europe, but under countries of the United Kingdom, just like England‎, Northern Ireland‎ and Scotland. Per consensus, Wales is therefore considered a country of the UK, not an independant European country. A note on your user page is not a form of consensus and some of your previous additions don't seem to come from a consensus either ([1], [2]). Considering several other users removed these categories after you added them (and I don't include myself in this situation), it's up to you to reach a clear and valid consensus explicitly saying Wales-related categories should be included under categories by country. I'm also pinging Hmains, who removed several of your non-consensual changes, as he may bring up something else to the table. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:51, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

I do not know if I can keep track of all previous comments and links. However, on content, I do not see a problem with adding different parent categories. Country does not refer specifically to independent states, and definitely I would not call Wales a region. I oppose rigid approaches and I see both parent categories as compatible if needed. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

The consensus, my friend, not only on Wikipedia, but in the wider world, is that Wales is a country in the UK, in Europe and in the wider world. You can not dispute that fact. The categories on Commons and elsewhere need to reflect that fact. You are suggesting that:

countries of Europe = 'independant European countries'

and that would be very misleading. We are a country, even though we are not totally independent.

I suggest you start a new category: Category:Independent countries of Europe. That would be clear and correct. Until that new category is in place 'countries' means 'countries'.

Once again, sources should trump political bias on all Wikimedia projects, and clarity should outweigh ambiguity. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 10:29, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Iñaki LL: See WP:OVERCAT for that matter. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

@Llywelyn2000: That's not what this consensus says however. Again you don't have a specific consensus regarding the issue. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Hmains / Synthwave.94, but the COM:OVERCAT question was answered by me above, and no counter reasoning has been offered.

Your link to Talk:Wales/Archive country poll shows that the consensus was for The conclusion is of this discussion/debate was that Wales is commonly described as a "country", and can therefore be described as such on Wikipedia. And if the consensus is for Wales to be described as a country, then that needs to be acknowledge in the categories, as well as in the article proper.

I take it that you accept my suggestion for clarity, and that a second category is now needed (Category:independant European countries). If not, then by default, Wales needs to be included in Category:Countries of Europe etc. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Your pool says it should be considered a country, not that it should be included along with other countries of Europe, including the UK, the country of which it's a part of. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Wow, did not know there were [quasi-]discussions around an obvious answer that Wales is no different from England, Scotland and N. Ireland and if those three are not in Category:Countries of Europe neither should Wales. @Llywelyn2000: Congrats on having this category all by yourself, I guess, hope you are happy. I don't care, I'm happy for you too :D Gikü (talk) 06:40, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wales is a country and is therefore included in lists of countries and in the Category:Countries of Europe, that's common sense, nothing else. And yes, I agree with you that Scotland etc should also be included; thanks for your valuable, reasonable suggestion. Please feel free to add. If the Category was 'UN member states within Europe' or 'EU member states', then Wales would not be included. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:28, 2 October 2020 (UTC)