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You can't change just those two categories since they are part of the Category:Soccer-tree. Either they are all socer or they are all something else. Since Category:Football is a supercategory for both American football, soccer and other "football sports" the only other alternative to soccer would be association football. As far as I understood that had even less support then soccer so therefore Category:Soccer it is. /Lokal_Profil01:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with JeremyA however. Soccer is not a word used in England or any other part of the world except in the United States. The correct term is "Football in England". If you want to talk about American football, then a category could be named "American football in England". I have problems changing every category to "Soccer something" simply because that is the American term, however not the term used in Britain. Gryffindor22:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you take a look at Category:Football you'll see that football can be any of 6 sports. The alternative to "soccer" would be "association football" so I'd say soccer is the lesser of two evils. /Lokal_Profil00:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Objection: Soccer is an American English term that is not used in Britain or in France or Germany. I don't think there is a disambiguation clash, since "Football something X" in the European frame clearly refers to "Soccer" and not anything else. Gryffindor22:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, Category:Soccer (and its substructure) is for association football. I personally disagree with the use of this American English term. But, I disagree also with the infraction to the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories). So, if you want to maintain your position, open a discussion about the renaming of Category:Soccer. --Juiced lemon22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can all agree that Category:football should be a topcategory for all types of football (there are more than two) anything else would lead to World War 3. So then the choice is "Association football" or "soccer", I believe that more people (non-american and american) would recoignise soccer then association football. Anyhow as long as the top category is soccer the subcategories should be called the same thing, the same thing goes for the "American football" subcategories. /Lokal_Profil23:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about we leave all categories concerning (Association) football in the United States under the term "Soccer X" such as "Soccer venues in the United States", and the rest of the world with "Football X"? In the English Wikipedia they came up with a solution "Football (Soccer)". Maybe not the best solution but at least it's still a compromise. I think the overarching category Category:Football can remain as it is, since it concerns all forms. "Association Football" is not a good idea IMO because let's face it nobody uses that term in the general sense. Gryffindor14:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well we agree to let the category "Football" alone. Now we have to find a proper name instead of "Soccer" in that case. So I think we should just cut the gordian knot and have it as "Football (Soccer)" since that has been chewed over in the English Wikipedia more than enough and that's what the consensus was over there. Gryffindor22:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the need to change from "soccer" to "football" for the non-U.S. countries, but to change "football" to "American football" for the United States is similarly wrong. Just like the rest of the world doesn't call it soccer, we in the states don't call it American football - it's just football. In the case of college football, where the reference is clearly most common to the system involving American football, a notice can be placed similar to the one on the category at the English Wikipedia. It may not be the prettiest category structure, but it's currently downright wrong. --Fuzzy51022:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The heading of this discussion might currently be slightly missleading. We're no longer talking about changing soccer to football, it's about changing all the subcategories of Soccer with football in their name and similar for the subcategories of American football. Additionally there is also a discussion about an alternative naming of the Soccer category-tree (but not just football). /Lokal_Profil13:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We have two options: either have "American Football" and "Association Football", or leave "Football" for both American and European categories, which is potentially confusing though. Gryffindor16:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was a joke. Unless we state a new definition, different than the one in the English Wikipedia, football is the name given to a number of different team sports, including American football.
According to the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
, the etymology of soccer is: From alteration of assoc., abbreviation of association football. “Soccer” is a specific term of the American language, which is not popular in an international context. So, I think that Category:Soccer is unsuitable in Wikimedia Commons.
In my opinion, we have 3 main alternatives for the renaming of this category:
Category:Football, because Association football is a very popular game, so the word “association” is commonly ommitted, like in Manchester United F.C.. The current contents would be moved to Category:Football games or Category:Football sports
Assuming that we apply the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories#Principles), the name of the parent category X will be used “as is” to build subcategory names, like “Category:X in England”.
This poll aim to choose a name to refer to “association football” (see football (soccer)) in any category of the topics structure in Wikimedia Commons.
D. Football and contents of current category moved to Category:Fooball games
E. Football and contents of current category moved to Category:Fooball sports
A valid vote is an ordered list of different alternatives (at least one alternative), amongst the alternatives which will be listed on September, 1st, 0:00 am. Examples of valid votes:
A
A,B,C,D
There will be a votes count for each couple of alternatives. (A,B) is the number of times A is preferred to B.
vote A means (A,B)=+1, (A,C)=+1 (A,D)=+1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
vote A,B,C,D means (A,B)=+1, (A,C)=+1, (A,D)=+1, (B,C)=+1, (B,D)=+1, (C,D)=+1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
This count will determine which alternative(s) is (are) preferred to all other ones. We will possibly decide between the remaining alternatives with a points count (1st place=1 point, 2nd place=2 points...): the alternative with the lowest total will be choosed.
--Juiced lemon10:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that alternative D should probably be crossed out for the sake of peace. Since the name can in fact mean a whole family of sports (and is currently the category for this family) or any of the sports therin depending on in which country one is. All the other three names would however be unique for the sport in question. /Lokal_Profil16:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All the alternatives, except one, will be crossed out after the votes count. Anybody can add his own alternative, and the bad ones will be censored by the voters. --Juiced lemon18:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Although I might have a preference I don't care which of the names the category tree goes under the main thing is that we pick one and stick with it because the current structure isn't sustainable. Currently the main category is called Soccer but within it are lots of subcategories starting with Football, to add to this confusion Soprani has now added the category Football (soccer) and is slowly migrating subcategories Soccer to this name. Similarly within American football there are lots of subcategories starting with Football.
Now when I tried to request renaming of subcategories to the current (at that point) standard (i.e. Soccer and American football) that was stopped. Similarly after an new attempt to make the structure uniform (now under the name Association football) that was also stopped. So rather then just stopping the structuring come with useful advice on how you think the situation might best be resolved because if nothing is done this category tree is going to become even more caotic. /Lokal_Profil22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I second that. Something must be done and this vote, however few people took part in it, is all that we have at the moment. I think that most people do not have a very strong opinion on the name of the categories, as long as the categories are consistently named. If Siebrand isn't going to add them to User:CommonsDelinker/commands, where can we find an admin who will? --rimshottalk17:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to process the requests until I saw the massive amount of "soccer this" and "soccer that" categories that need to be moved. To me, they tell of a consensus far greater than what was the result of this voting.
There should be a real vote, in which over 20 people would participate, that is announced properly, to decide which name is best. The above listed vote included only 5 voters, and for now there is no solution accepted. Migdejong17:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I would've voted E, D, C, but I must admit I do not understand the voting process completely. Should we have a new vote, perhaps accounting for the votes previously added? Migdejong18:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You don't give grounds to that. If anybody could block any decision for specious reasons, that would lead to a terrible mess, since nobody will care to take part in votings which would be ineffective. --Juiced lemon19:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as you can see above, the results were not accepted, due to the fact only 6 voters showed up. If you have more voters you can finally fix this issue. Migdejong19:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Most decisions are taken and have been taken without any poll. In some cases, the decision is made by a single user, when nobody has opposed. Organize a poll is not mandatory, that is just an easy way to collect opinions from other users who have not taken part in the discussion. There is no rule stating that a minimal participation is requested to valid the result of the poll (this is not an election), and such rule would be currently a nonsense.
This vote has been accepted, but the decision is not yet fully implemented. A new vote will not change anything to this situation. More, you cannot guess neither the future number of voters, nor the “requested” (by whom?) number.
Well I'll just have to start another poll then. You seem very dedicated to a poll that is not accepted by anyone, due to low numbers. Remeber there are no rules, whatsoever, for anything. But to change 200+ cats, there needs to be some acceptible compromise or a clear vote. Apparently 6 voters are not enough. 20 should be. Migdejong20:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who have told you this poll is not accepted by anyone? The only person who refused to implement the result of the voting? Six voters for only 200 categories is an exceptionnaly high ratio. We have already changed several thousands of categories as a result of a single decision, without poll, with 2 users again a third one. This poll is perfectly valid and its result is lawful. A new poll about the same subject would be very questionable. --Juiced lemon21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is with the name football itself. Sure we could have an amateur football category, but the Americans would assume it means their kind. This doesn't need a cfd, somebody just needs to think up a sensible name for an amateur football category. Heck, you could break the naming convention and call it amateur soccer, at least nobody would mistake it. -Nard the Bard01:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For what it is worth I think that if there are to be different categories for organized soccer, and casual soccer, those categories should be subcategories of Category:Soccer -- or possibly Category:Football (soccer).
Comment Might it be practical to use the term "soccer" for subcategories relevent to countries where the game is called "Soccer", eg something like "Soccer games in the United States"? Infrogmation (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Soccer and association football are the same thing. They shouldn't be used to distinguish professional vs amateur or whatever. I suggest leaving it as it is and closing this discussion, since it's inactive anyway. ghouston (talk) 12:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]