Category talk:Multilingual tags: Gallery headings

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Edit warring[edit]

Please, take a note about a French editor replacing templates with {{Label}}s, although French is now present in {{Maps}}. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:55, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He also asserts that “Maps” should be in singular, LoL. Discussing here because the problem is not unique to {{Maps}}. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that in Russian {{label|Q4006|link=-|capitalization=ucfirst}} expands to a two-words compound
Русский: Географическая карта
which, aside of having singular number, looks as a superfluous disambiguation (note the noun “карта” is generally ambiguous, but in this context the meaning can be easily inferred). 08:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

{{LangSwitch}} should not be used[edit]

See template talk: LangSwitch #Using default with en. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnuniq: what to do with non-functioning {{LangSwitch}} now? Would you endorse the parser replacement, or? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:32, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it makes sense to fallback to a wikidata label translation, the wikidata label is not always useful as a heading, for example because of the singular/plural issue. Instead, I think that LangSwitch should be used, especially since it has a reasonable fallback mechanism. For example, my language setting is "de_AT" and I want it to use the "de" text, which LangSwitch does, but #switch:{{int:Lang}} does not. So I'd strongly suggest to reset to LangSwitch and instead add more languages to the lists. Thanks --Reinhard Müller (talk) 09:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Reinhard Müller: First, for such cases as “History”, “Panoramics” and “Satellite imagery” reversion to Wikidata is helpful. Second, the problem of the day is edit warring by radical Wikidata fans – we should coopt Wikidata to avoid alienating moderate Wikidata lovers. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
{{Panoramics}} is a good example for wikidata not being a good match: the German word "Panoramafotografie" refers to the process of making panorama images, while the desired heading text would be "Panoramaaufnahmen", which refers to the images themselves. Also, the missing fallback chain mentioned above is a big issue. I do love wikidata and I'm all for using it for what it fits, but wikidata is not a general-purpose translation tool. --Reinhard Müller (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Existing peculiarities of vocabulary, semantics and grammar of specific languages in specific headings’ cases does not convince against the use of {{label}} by default. If for some specific heading∧language combination the result of {{label}} became too jarring, it’s up to users of the language to apply a fix. @Reinhard Müller: if you deem that there are cases where majority of users of unsupported languages can be confused or offended by Wikidata labels, then file objections on TALKPAGEs of specific templates, please. I will not edit any heading having a blue template_talk link without reading first. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably for most of the current gallery heading templates, wikidata is no good match for the single reason of the singular vs. plural issue. Also, the missing fallback chain is a big problem which you seem to ignore in the whole discussion. --Reinhard Müller (talk) 10:47, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Singular isn’t a contraindication for such labels as vegetation (currently in use in {{Plants}}). A person with good linguistic skills can find such workarounds for some cases. OK, I’ll think about language fallbacks. BTW is this mechanism of LangSwitch really usable? Rarely tried exotic values for uselang. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do you literally mean non-functioning as in {{LangSwitch}} does not work? I don't think that is correct. I examined what it was doing when writing Module:Countries and I believe LangSwitch works well. The only problem is that the documentation regarding default is incorrect. I just had a look at fixing it but it's a bit complex (for example, "as determined by GetFallback" seems to be obsolete). Maybe later. The default parameter works if en is not specified. When default and en are specified, default has no effect because it turns out that all languages fall back to en so default is never used if en is specified. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's wrong, the default is used first, before using fallback to English. This allows tracking missing translations where an additional formatting (or note) is necessary, which won't be used in the plain English version. English ("en") is effectively in the last position of all chains, the penultimate position being the "default".
As well the "default" is not necessarily in English or could be "international English" different from the standard English used in "en", to avoid some (implicit) semantic shortcuts used in US ("en" is often tuned for "en-US" for topics geolocated in US and all non-geolocated topics, or tuned for "en-GB" for topics geolocated in UK), but when the "default" is used to display English text, it is better for English-speaking users living elsewhere, in UK (if the "en" resource was tuned for US), or in US (if the "en" resource was tuned for UK), or in India, South Africa, etc.
The "default" is not necessarily in English and may be an official local toponym adopting its standardized orthography (not used in US where it was simplified), and even the "default" may be in another non-Latin script for this case. So "en" has very low priority for all other languages, "default" is more international and more standard. verdy_p (talk) 15:57, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
en
@Verdy p: IMHO you’re not only missing the subject of discussion, but didn’t even make direct observations. Try this example (at right) with uselang= both en and various other. Do you ever see default? And again, this is not a recent discovery; see the discussion link above. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:13, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So the LangSwitch was modified, because initially it was using "en" only at end of the fallback chain, *after* "default", and only a query for "en" would find the "en" value before these two fallbacks "default" and "en" (removed from the last position as it was already in the first position of the chain). verdy_p (talk) 16:18, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
en
With the sandbox version it works now (it supports now both the local fallbacks of Commons, and then the builtin fallbacks of MediaWiki, as well as default BCP 47 fallbacks for language variants ! The best of the two world, because before LangSwitch only used the builtin mediawiki fallbacks, but Autotranslate and similar templates used only the local fallbacks and 'default' and this was no coherent. Now everything uses the same expanded list in the new sandbox ! Even with these additions, the code is also faster, does not recurse on the stack, does not scan the same codes multiple times to look for fallbacks, and the generated lists are warrantied to contain unique codes properly ordered as we want, without unncecessary duplicates which were slowing down also the rendering by expanding them multiple times during "autotranslation". English language variants are now correctly handled (as well as "formal/informal" lingusitic styles in German/Dutch). verdy_p (talk) 17:57, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Singular names at Caspium[edit]

Incnis Mrsi raises the issue of Caspium above, and I see that Camulogene77 and Rodhullandemu have disagreed about the use of {{Label}} for headings at Scotland and United Kingdom.

The following compares the headings from Caspium using the specific templates and editor-chosen labels.

  • {{Maps}} → Maps
  • {{Satellite images}} → Satellite imagery
  • {{Panoramics}} → Panoramics
  • {{label|Q4006|link=-|capitalization=ucfirst}} → Map
  • {{label|Q725252|link=-|capitalization=ucfirst}} → Satellite imagery
  • {{label|Q125191|link=-|capitalization=ucfirst}} → Photograph
  • This page in other languages: de • en • fr • zh

"Map" and "Photograph" are not valid English headings and Caspium should use the specific templates. Johnuniq (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a case where wikidata labels do not specify plural forms, the topic in Wikidata being singular. It would require adding and using properties in Wikidata for these plurals, and use a parameter in {{Label}} to select a plural form (the unspecified plural number in nominative case, in languages that have multiple plural forms or use alternate grammatical cases for some plurals).
So the {{Maps}} uses {{LangSwitch}} and does not use {{Label}} (except possibly in the "default" fallback, which may be used in addition to the "en" specified value which does not need a {{Label}} query)
verdy_p (talk) 16:06, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

“lang=”[edit]

@Verdy p: if you add such a parameter, then please make it really usable – note the change in arguments of {{Label}}.

Also, switching {{Maps}} to the sandbox version of Module:Fallback for the time being. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 21:34, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The bug in Template:Fallback is being tested, I exposed the solution, and it is in the sandbox version of the module, used by the sandbox version of the template, itself used by the sandbox version of LangSwitch.
As Template:Maps has very little use and you signaled the problem for Template:Maps, I have enabled the Template:Maps to use that sandbox version.
And yes tests are being performed to confirm that my solution for Template:LangSwitch works. verdy_p (talk) 21:37, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok you're right for the lang parameter also passed to Label, but it was already missing before my change, when it was in the #default of the #switch which was present in the Maps template before my change: I just copy-pasted what was in the #default, without looking at it. verdy_p (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My tests for the small change propose in Module:Fallback is conclusive (it works as expected in the Template:Maps you signaled): the "default" is taken before "en", except in with "?uselang=en" or "uselang=en-*" where the "en" translated resource is used before "default" and then found to show "Maps" in Template:Maps, and not "Map" if it was taken from from Wikidata from the "default".
You'll see that my change to use LangSwitch instead of #switch was correct, and that now the fallbacks are corrrecty used (so "uselang=gsw" shows the translation in German provided in Template:Maps). verdy_p (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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