Category talk:House of Miklaszewski

Name

Hello,

User:Heroldicas moved the Category:House of Miklashevskiy to Miklaszewski family on Feb 13, 2024 at 09:37 with the reason "(Rightful name of the category)". I only partially agree with this reasoning and would like to put it up for discussion here.

This noble family originated in Poland and its name is Polish, so the spelling "Miklaszewski" is justified to some extent. However, the category (at least so far) only includes family members who rose to prominence in the Russian Empire (e.g. they were governors or other high-ranking officials, politicians, landowners). In Russian, their name is spelt "Миклашевский", which can be transliterated into Latin script as Miklashevskiy.

When the Russian nobility fled after the revolution, many Miklashevskys settled in Germany, France and the USA. There they adapted their surname to the respective local spelling. In Germany and France they used the spelling Miklachevsky and in English-speaking countries Miklashevsky.(Source: Miklashevskaya, Ludmila. Gender and Survival in Soviet Russia. A Life in the Shadow of Stalin’s Terror. London, New York, Oxford, New Delhi, Sydney; first published in Great Britain,Bloomsbury Academic, Bloomsbury Publishing Plc,[2007, 2012].ISBN 978-1-3501-3921-3 . page xii.).

There are also contemporary pre-revolutionary German-language sources that write the name as Miklaschewski - e.g. Rigasches Adressbuch von 1910, page 149 or Rigasches Adressbuch von 1911, page 150. (Address books from Riga from 1910 and 1911).

The name of today's family members from Russia is officially transliterated as Miklashevsky by the Russian passport authorities. Some family members live in Germany and their spelling is exactly this (see e.g. here).

Since only family members of the Russian branch of the family have been included in the Commons category so far, the current Russian spelling would make sense for its naming - i.e. Miklashevsky.

Nevertheless, I have been working for some time on several Wikipedia articles on the history of the family, whose drafts I will publish soon, and in them I will also go into the Polish origins and highlight some Polish family members and include them in the Commons category. From this perspective, I can go along with thee spelling Miklaszewski in the category name, because soon it will become correct. Then (only) the Polish spelling will be correct.

So, nun abgesehen aber vom Namen, der Miklaszewski bleiben kann, finde ich, dass die Kategorie "House of..." heißen soll, statt "family". Es ist üblich, im Deutschen wie im Englischen, dass man von Adelsgeschlechtern bzw. -häusern spricht, und nicht von Familien. (siehe z.B. List of noble houses). Siehe auch andere Commons-Kategorien über Adel - Category:House of Hohenzollern, Category:House of Habsburg, Category:House of Windsor.

So, apart from the family name, which can remain Miklaszewski, I think that the category should be called "House of..." instead of "family". It is common, in English, to speak of noble houses, and not of families. (see e.g. List of noble houses). See also other Commons categories about nobility - House of Hohenzollern, House of Habsburg, House of Windsor.

In my opinion, the category should be called that way: House of Miklaszewski.

Any other opinions? Liglioto (talk) 22:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello. As you noticed, the Miklaszewski house of the Ostoja coat of arms is of originally Polish origin and has a Polish surname. Many members of this family still live in Poland with their original surname (Miklaszewski). Source is here (genealogy of Polish noble houses): https://www.sejm-wielki.pl/s/i.php?qt=Miklaszewski&rozwin=1.

I have just added two members of the indigenous Polish Miklaszewski family to the category, I hope it will help at least a little in making the decision. I would like to point out that the Miklaszewskis also held significant dignitary positions in Poland (they were senators, scientists, writers, etc.).

Your entire argument is based on comparing the spelling of one family line that spread across Europe, although it is worth taking into account primarily the indigenous surname and its Polish users. Please remember that many foreign sources write about the Miklaszewski family of the Ostoja coat of arms in its "Miklaszewski" form.

As for the spelling "House of Miklaszewski" - I would prefer not to, due to its aesthetic form. Almost all noble families in the category

Category:Noble_families_of_Poland

and

Category:Noble_families_of_Germany

are written in the "XXXX family" form and not the "House of XXXX".

I would also prefer the "House of XXXX" form, but then we would have to change the names of hundreds of other articles in Wikipedia Commons. Heroldicas (talk) 08:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I had not seen your reply here in the discussion, so I undid your redirections. Sorry for that. Please, next time, when you move something/make changes, write the reasons, or give a reference to the discussion site.

Now I see your points and agree with you.

I already have said in my original post that I agree with the change to the spelling "Miklaszewski" as it is the original.

My concern was only with "House of XYZ" or "XYZ family".

Now I understand your point that "... family" is consistent with the other families in the lists and agree.

Cheers.

I would copy/paste our discussion to the new category for other readers in the future. Liglioto (talk) 15:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I love decent and normal people like you are. Thank you. Heroldicas (talk) 15:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)