Category talk:Bolton

 Oppose move. No reason to change this one either, the only other place of this name with any consequence is in Ontario - and is about 20% of the size of this one. The only real conflict is with the Metropolitan Borough that contains the town. Have there been any significant issues with bot categorisation?

To answer my own question, yes. There's a large number of files of the district in this cat. That shows moving this to Bolton, Greater Manchester would not be good enough, as bots (and inexperienced people) will continue to use "Bolton, Greater Manchester" for the district, so it doesn't actually fix the biggest problems around this cat. Apart from the district? No major issues - 1 erroneous panoramio upload in the months that bulk upload has been running is insignificant.

More practically, Crouch, Swale please leave these moves for now. There are more lively discussions on more contentious subjects (esp Plymouth), which are helpful to this case. If Plymouth is not moved, the same logic would apply against a Bolton move but would be even stronger: Plymouth's status as primary on WP is clearly contentious, while Bolton's has never been questioned. A move discussion here would then be a complete waste of time. If Plymouth is moved, that discussion would provide insight onto cases like this one, and could indicate what considerations are actually significant. IMO number of alternative topics is irrelevant, while significance and popularity can be - its just how to judge that.

There's no rush to fix these things. Unless you can demonstrate a significant problem that can't wait a few months?--Nilfanion (talk) 12:19, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

The Metropolitan Borough is a subtopic of the town so doesn't count as a competitor (see w:WP:DABCONCEPT), as I pointed out there are many separate topics called "Bolton". Bolton was changed by me, see [1]. There were many incorrect files for the Scottish one and Bolton Abbey which I corrected a few months ago. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:29, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately the conflict does exist, because of one key difference between WP and Commons. The borough is indisputably a sub-topic of the overarching concept "Bolton" (but not the "town of Bolton", which is strictly the built-up area). However, the category for the Metropolitan Borough is correctly a parent category of this one. That means the relationship between the two categories is the opposite of the situation on WP. This category should contain NO files for the broader district.

That means if a file for, say, Blackrod is placed in this category it's wrongly placed and needs to be corrected. In contrast, if someone puts a describes an event in Blackrod in w:Bolton, that's not wrongly placed, although its likely to be moved to the sub-concept article unless it is really important.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:49, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Having files for the district isn't as much of a problem as having an entirely different Bolton file in. The reason for this move is that there are many unrelated meanings of "Bolton" so someone can choose which concept they want. While "Plymouth" is more unique and obscure than "Bolton" even though there are more important topics called "Plymouth". Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:57, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

The main way we will get files for the district in the main cat is probably from bots which could probably be fixed anyway.

I agree bots should be fixed of course - the vast majority of the files you fixed (please give a decent link to the correct section of your log?) were also bot placed. Its also a lesser issue for within the district than a completely separate Bolton - however it is still wrong and should still be avoided. Blackrod is a sister cat of this one, not a daughter - its relationship to this cat is comparable to Manchester's. A file of Manchester shouldn't be here, nor should a file of Blackrod.

Number of alternate topics is not germane to the discussion, and its absurd to argue Bolton is more ambiguous than Plymouth in any way: There are 17 places named Bolton in the world, whilst there are 31 Plymouths. The relative lead in the UK Plymouth's importance is smaller, compared to the main topics elsewhere. There is also an important non-geographic concept known as just "Plymouth" (the car), there is nothing comparable for Bolton. Both also have a lengthy list of partial matches (eg people with the Bolton surname or the ships named Plymouth). Bolton is only worse when you look entirely within Britain. I'd re-iterate my initial point - wait for the discussion on Plymouth to close. There is nothing URGENT here.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:19, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

(12:31, 3 January 2017-12:49)[2](12:51, 3 January 2017-12:55)[3] (14:09, 4 February 2017-14:16)[4]. Although the fact the bot categorized "Bolton Abbey" as "Bolton" is really the problem with the bot. Agreed the other places called Bolton are much smaller than the other places called Plymouth but most of the other places in the UK are unlikely to be called by the county they are in as many have changed counties including this one.

Do you suggest I remove this request until the Plymouth one is closed?, however that might be months or even years. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I would recommend putting this one on ice until the Plymouth one is sorted (along with the somewhat similar one at Cleveland OH). Consolidating the discussions into one and getting an actual resolution, instead of having the same discussion repeatedly at different venues. That generates more hassle for all involved, makes it harder to get a result, and may scatter useful points on other pages - its bad on every level. So what if that does take months, there's no harm in waiting for it.--Nilfanion (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I have removed the tag, this is why I was suggesting trying to have some of these discussions at Commons:Category disambiguation to create some guidelines on it. However as you have pointed out before many need to be considered on their own merits. Why don't you try and improve the disambiguation guideline with your recommendations. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm hopeful that Plymouth should get a resolution in the next couple of months. I do not think there is any interest in yet another discussion venue (scatter the activity => get even lower involvement = no thanks). Feel free to work on Category disambiguation as a {{Proposed}} guideline or essay or whatever, and try to get interest from the broader community at the village pump. I don't see any need for change myself.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:34, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Its now been nearly 8 months and the Plymouth discussion looks likely to be moved. Category:Bolton, Greater Manchester (town) or Category:Bolton, Metropolitan Borough of Bolton would be other targets if DAB is needed from district. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:08, 8 December 2017 (UTC)