Category talk:Augmented arms of Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl of Essex

Discussion copied from User talk:Lobsterthermidor

There are some issues with File:Augmentation of honour (1537) Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl of Essex.svg and your correction to File:Thomas Cromwell, Coat of Arms, 1537.png that need clarification. The arms of Thomas Cromwell with the augmentation of honour granted to him in 1537 on his son's marriage to Elizabeth Seymour, appear on the back of a portrait medal made for him in 1538, File:Thomas Cromwell medal, 1538 side 2.png and in an heraldic "Parliamentary Roll" of 1539/40 (neatly crossed out on his attainder). Illustrations of both appear in MacCulloch, D. (2018). Thomas Cromwell: a life, pp. 427–8, plates 7 and 8. See also note 21 on p. 679 for the full heraldic description: quarterly, 1st and 4th: azure, on a fess between three lions rampant or, a rose gules, between two Cornish choughs proper; 2nd and 3rd, per fess azure and or, a pale counter-changed, charged alternately with fleurs de lys of the second, and pelicans with wings elevated vulning themselves gules. The blazon appears to be misleading but the colour image of the arms (plate 8) was the reference for File:Thomas Cromwell, Coat of Arms, 1537.png and it is the right one. Note the position of the wings on the pelicans on the medal. The blazon is also given in Merriman, R.B. (1902). The Life and letters of Thomas Cromwell. Vol. II, p. 284.

Thanks for all you do. Keep up the good work! Ammelida (talk) 03:31, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Party per fess azure and or - with azure in chief and or in base

Many thanks for your engagement, appreciation and attention to detail! My new image File:Augmentation of honour (1537) Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl of Essex.svg follows the blazon given in both MacCulloch and Merriman quoted by you above, the field being Party per fess azure and or not Party per fess or and azure, as shown in File:Thomas Cromwell, Coat of Arms, 1537.png. I did study all the images already in this cat before producing my new image, including the medal - thanks to whoever uploaded them, very useful. You state effectively that the right one is Party per fess or and azure - do you have any source for that? I tend to think a written blazon is more authoritative than something like "plate 8" which I assume is a modern image? If it is a photo of something ancient, that would be useful. Not trying to be difficult at all, it's just a question of getting to the truth, not always easy! The fleur-de-lys clearly comes from the 1st & 4th quarters of the royal arms of Henry VIII, the royal arms of France, which have field azure with fleur-de-lys or. However, the augmentation he granted to Jane Seymour have these tinctures reversed Category:Marriage augmentation arms of Queen Jane Seymour.

As for the form of the wings, I do agree that on the medal they are shown close not elevated - but the standard heraldic form of the pelican vulning does seem to be with wings elevated, and the blazon in Merriman states wings elevated. So do we assume that the medal deliberately contravenes this convention, or that the sculptor was just a bit sloppy in showing them close? Perhaps there is no "answer" to these questions, thus it is useful to show all credible possibilities, and let the viewer ponder the question for himself. I have found that even with such important and long-established arms as those of the See of Bath and Wells, there is no clear form regarding the tincture of the saltire, it is shown in two ways on monuments of bishops themselves Category:Coats of arms of See of Bath and Wells.

Anyway, it's very helpful when people like you raise such issues for debate, we are getting closer to the truth. Thanks and best wishes Lobsterthermidor (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your detailed comments, your insight and for the compliment (the images were uploaded by me). I can't explain the mystery of the blazon - Cromwell's arms have confounded scholars ever since his unfortunate demise: For example, Blomefield, Francis (1808). Launditch Hundred: Elmham. An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk. Vol. 9, pp. 486-495.

Plate 8 in Diarmaid MacCulloch's book is a colour photograph of the ancient arms in an heraldic parliamentary roll dating from 1539/40.

Those same arms appear:

1. on the cover of the Great Bible published in 1538-9 which is reproduced in (in colour) in this article: https://theconversation.com/how-thomas-cromwell-used-cut-and-paste-to-insert-himself-into-henry-viiis-great-bible-143765

2. in a stained glass window at the Bodleian Library: https://www.topfoto.co.uk/asset/1102/

3. in the top left corner of a painting of Thomas Cromwell by an unknown artist dated circa 1538-9: https://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/Portrait-of-Thomas-Cromwell--c--1485-154/53BD9D6A3BDC6753

The Seymour augmentation File:Marriage augmentation arms of Queen Jane Seymour.svg and the Cromwell augmentation File:Thomas Cromwell, Coat of Arms, 1537.png "possess ‘the same unusual threefold structure, same metal and colours, fleurs de lys, and a feral creature’" (MacCulloch, pp. 427-8)

It can indeed be a struggle to get to the truth! Best wishes Ammelida (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for all those superb sources! I am beginning to suspect that you are somewhat of an expert on this topic... I'm here to learn! I especially like stained glass heraldic sources as they cannot be altered by restorers, cannot fade or flake, so the Bodleian image is very persuasive. One assumes that before the artist started on his costly work of many hours he made sure that the image he was reproducing was correct. I enjoyed reading the article on the Great Bible, what a great story and interpretation.

Thank you very much for putting me right on this topic. I am more than willing to produce another version of my image (or probably to supersede it, I am becoming more convinced) showing the arms as in the Bodleian stained glass, with field Party per fess or and gules and with wings close not elevated, and to state the Bodleian stained glass and the medal as sources. If you could upload Plate 8 in Diarmaid MacCulloch's book, that would probably seal the deal as far as good sources go. The correct blazon for that image would seem to be Party per fess or and gules, a pale counterchanged all charged alternately with six fleurs de lys azure and pelicans with wings close vulning themselves of the first, 3 and 3. The "six" and last "3 and 3" added as the blazons I have seen do not specify numbers, which I think they should. Also it probably should clarify that not just the pale is charged, but the whole shield, hence I have added "all charged".

In the portrait image and the Great Bible it's not easy to distinguish the tinctures (PS already a good image (different edition seemingly) on wikicommons File:Great Bible of 1539 Frontispiece - St John's College Bb.8.30.jpg), but if you want to tell me what you think they are I would like to upload them to wikicommons, as further examples, together with the Bodleian stained glass. The mystery then becomes: where did all the erroneous written blazons come from? Quoted from ancient written sources or just modern attempts at blazonry by people looking at correct images but not fully competent in transferring image to heraldic description? Best wishes and thanks for the very interesting discussion.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:00, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

PS, also a rare image of the quartered arms of Thomas Cranmer there! That too will find its way onto wikicommons.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:08, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for uploading the stained glass and the Great Bible detail. It would be helpful to have another image of Cromwell's augmentation to compare with that of Edward Seymour. I look forward to your heraldic creations.

Two presentation copies of the Great Bible were made (overseen by Thomas Cromwell):

One for Henry VIII: File:Great Bible 1539.jpg, described at https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-great-bible-probably-henry-viiis-own-copy

Cromwell's personal copy, now at St John's College, Cambridge: File:Great Bible of 1539 Frontispiece - St John's College Bb.8.30.jpg

Plate 8 in Diarmaid MacCulloch's book is taken from a manuscript at the College of Arms: The arms of Cromwell as augmented in 1537, College of Arms, MS Num Sch 6/40. Presumably the blazon originates there. I am unable to upload the image as it is subject to copyright - that was the reason for this one: File:Thomas Cromwell, Coat of Arms, 1537.png

In any case we have enough with the Great Bible frontispiece, the medal (both commissioned by Thomas Cromwell) and the stained glass.

Ps. Diarmaid MacCulloch spent 10 years researching and writing his biography of Thomas Cromwell. He is a meticulous scholar and has consulted with experts in their fields.

All the best, and many thanks for an enjoyable and informative discussion! Ammelida (talk) 05:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)