User talk:Underdwarf58

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Palestine Recognition

Please Update the Map of Countries that Recognize the Independence of Palestine with Ireland, Norway and Spain. 49.145.39.30 07:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Norway and Spain will do so on May 28, for Ireland I'm not sure yet. Underdwarf58 (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Czech Republic–Palestine

Hello, Wikipedia was recently incorrectly changed. I would like to add you verification source, which wasn't added. United Nations depository of the General Secretary is determinative: https://undocs.org/en/A/78/846 (Official UN Document for 2023, valid at 9 April 2024). Document at mzv.cz you added from 27 February 2020 is inexact therefore oudated, this document refers to the status of Embassy and political position of concurrent government, which is clamoring factual independent existence of Palestine, not recognition in 1988, because independence of this entity is not factually in existence at present time. (Czech Republic votes against membership of SoPalestine in the United Nations observer status) Therefore it also confirms it–Embassy of SoPalestine is in capital Prague, unrecognized countries doesn't have embassies in their capitals. Supplementary verf. world media source at 28 May 2024: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/22/mapping-which-countries-recognise-palestine-in-2024 Thank you. ThecentreCZ (talk) 03:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a misunderstanding. CZ should recognize Palestine as successor state (like Slovakia) but current government has "derecognized" in effect. Doc at mzv.cz is correct statement of the position. Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I would like to correct you. Current government doesn't see Palestine as a independent entity, but country have not used institute of "derecognization" of the State of Palstine. Derecognization would need implementation of procedures similar of countries, which for example unrecognized Republic of Kosovo. Because Czech Republic have official Embassy of the State of Palestine in Prague, which have Extraordinary and Plenipontentiary Embassy with Ambassador, who is officially accepted by the President of the Czech Republic, this is not the case. Head of states of State of Palestine and Czech Republic even met on official state visit and Ambassador is normally accepted even by Parliament offficals.

Additional sources: https://www.ceskenoviny.cz/index_img.php?id=15523 (Official State meeting between countries) https://www.senat.cz/cinnost/galerie.php?ke_dni=13.2.2024&O=14&aid=35339 (Official Meeting between Ambassador and Senate parliamentary leadership inside Czech Republic in April 2023) https://plus.rozhlas.cz/uznani-palestiny-neznamena-ze-jako-stat-existuje-upozornuje-poslanec-balas-9207862 (official Czech Public Radio source, which confirms recognition as of 4 April 2024) Thank you. ThecentreCZ (talk) 14:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Diplomatic relations is not the same as state recognition. Jan Bumba cannot give position of Cz government only his personal opinion. And pretty pictures do not mean anything either. https://zpravy-aktualne-cz.translate.goog/domaci/palestinu-nema-smysl-uznat-kdyz-neni-jasne-kdo-ji-predstavuj/r~766ee2ba181511ef80bfac1f6b220ee8/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es The CZ premier Petr Fiala on 22. 5. 2024 made it clear they do not recognize Palestine as a state. Selfstudier (talk) 15:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thats true, but Palestine have both diplomatic relations and state recognition. This statement is personal opinion of CZ Prime Minister as a supporter of Israel. Prime Minister have not powers to direct politics by himself, government structures in this parliamentary system is a collective organ. United Nations have records of official state policies. Media as a Czech Radio corrects positions of politicians. If you have problem with this, I provide you another source. Who else we can believe than most serious public media-outlet BBC, one of the most trustworthy News Agencies on the planet? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl77drw22qjo (28 May 2024), Thank you. ThecentreCZ (talk) 19:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

What the BBC says is accurate but they are only addressing the 1988 position, which the premier of CZ is denying (effectively derecognition, an unusual procedure but not impossible). If there was a source saying that the premier does not have that power and that some other procedure needs to be followed, then I would agree to look at this again but if the premier says "no", it is hard to argue against it otherwise. Selfstudier (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I can clarify you this through this source. Czech Republic can recognize (therefore unrecognize) country by the government decision only, that is–in voting by the majority of the members of the cabinet, which have 17 ministers, where prime minister is chairman and one of the members. Such decision is then published. No such decision was never published, submitted or voted about. This can be concluded from recognition of Kosovo in 2008, when government majority outvoted through official adpotion some members of the government, to adopt recognition over parliamentary majority. In 2019 president proposed unrecognization of Kosovo, but it was denied as this can again be adpoted only by official statement by majority of the cabinet. Such decisions are automatically published to the media and this is not the case. https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/ustavni-cinitele-nepodporili-zruseni-uznani-kosova-rekl-petricek-po-schuzce-se-zemanem-80448 (2019 derecognition) ThecentreCZ (talk) 20:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I see the point, that in the Kosovo case, the constitutional officials disagreed with a presidential decision. However maybe it was mainly because the president and the house disagreed. In WP, I think we will have to discuss what to do about this, it remains unclear, I would say and I am going to ask for input from other editors. Selfstudier (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

OK. I would like to add here final additional verification to clarify it altogether. This is statement about Palestine by Czech Minister of Foreign Affairs Karel Schwarzenberg from 2012: "Although we recognized it as a state a long time ago, we unfortunately have to find out that it does not control its territory." https://demagog.cz/vyrok/7619 (Statement from 20 December 2012 is oficially verified by EU fact-check subsidiary.). And I found this reportage by Czech Television from 27 May 2024, which concludes, that Czech Republic have not used act of derecognization: "from a historical and international legal point of view, they could have thought about officially revoking the recognization from 1988. But the Czech Republic is not in a vacuum." –> That means the Czech Republic did not revoked recognition of the State of Palestine. https://ct24.ceskatelevize.cz/clanek/domaci/168-hodin-ceskoslovensko-uz-palestinu-uznalo-ministerstvo-se-s-odborniky-neshodne-na-tom-zda-to-349626 (27 May 2024). Thank you. ThecentreCZ (talk) 22:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

That last is a good source, it clarifies that the recognition/derecognition is not a straightforward thing. My own opinion is that it is just politics, they recognized in the past but the current government don't want to antagonize (or would like to please) Israel. Well, we will discuss it at WP (u r welcome to join in) and see where we get to. Selfstudier (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The recognition of states is rarely an objective matter. Most states have extended recognition to other states through actions implying recognition. There is no standard or requirements for one state to recognize another state unless the former set guidelines for themselves. This means that even though a state might have an Embassy in another country, it doesn't mean said country recognizes it (I hope this makes sense 😂). For example, I believe Mexico has upgraded the Palestinian diplomatic mission to the level of an Embassy a year ago, and most people understood this as extending implied recognition. However, recent remarks by the foreign ministry show that Mexico has not in fact extended recognition. We (including governments) have to assume the intentions of states when taking actions that could be interpreted as recognition (which is why we, including governments, sometimes incorrectly identify certain acts as recognition), and from the statements of the Czech government, the best we can assume is that they have not extended recognition. CheezyCheddar (talk) 01:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I hope this makes sense If derecognition, it makes sense but there does seem to be some doubt as to whether Cz has actually derecognized. The Mexico case is not comparable. Selfstudier (talk) 03:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The Czechia government website cited on the Wikipedia article states: "So far, there has been no recognition of the Palestinian state by the Czech Republic," and further implies that it doesn't recognize a Palestinian state by referring to the West Bank and Gaza as a "future Palestinian state." Since recognition is not always crystal clear (most of the time it isn't, since the need to declare recognition of a state is rare), we have no option but to assume unless there was an explicit declaration. So, in this case, since the Czechia government has only addressed the situation by refuting claims of recognition in the past, we have to assume that Czechia does not recognize the State of Palestine. Since Czechia doesn't interpret Czechoslovakia's recognition as the recognition of the State of Palestine, I don't think we should necessarily be on the hunt for an act or statement of derecognition. CheezyCheddar (talk) 01:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

So... What now? Are we going to consider that Czechia didn't revoke it's recognition of Palestinian statehood which means it's 146 UN members that recognize it? Because I've seen mixed sources on the internet. Some say that they revoked and some say that they still recognize it. What's weird is that The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post did say that Armenia is the 145th country to do So, acting like Czechia did revoked their recognition. I'm not really sure if I should revert the svg file again or keep Czechia green. And nobody else is sharing their thoughts on this discussion which worries me as well. Underdwarf58 (talk) 23:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe that the Times of Israel or the Jerusalem Post are necessarily reliable in this scenario. But, even if we disregard that, Czechia doesn't seem to interpret Czechoslovakia's original recognition as the recognition of a state, despite Slovakia interpreting it as such. CheezyCheddar (talk) 01:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

If you think so, then why didn't you revert the svg file? Underdwarf58 (talk) 07:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't have the ability to edit the article; I haven't made enough edits yet on unprotected articles. But even if I was able to, it would be better to discuss it before making changes. CheezyCheddar (talk) 12:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

To be honest though, the 27 May reference that the user cited has a good point so I'll wait until more users come here and share their thoughts in order to finalize Czechia's position regarding the matter. Underdwarf58 (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe that's the best option as well. CheezyCheddar (talk) 14:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)