User talk:David Kernow~commonswiki

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November 2005 – 5 June 2006

Howdy

Hi... Pleased to meet you!

I actually started to write you a few days ago, but lost the browser tab whilst I poked around to make shorter questions. Guess I didn't need my hand held too much after all.

See User:fabartus/EuroCats , this should be most country topics in Europe, though it probably ought to be augmented by a good think on 'Major Regions'... to balance out the Islands groups if nothing else. Dang! I left off the Channel Islands! Well, more than that! So redlinks are 'missing pages' per what I can see of the way you've been setting this up. If you've got a master plan, I can help a whole lot more to move things along. One thing that would be helpful is to know the mass transit to city to country set up... Any good lead on the planned top down heirarchy will let me do what I can to land maps in the right places.

In recent weeks there have a few people trying to sort out the maps here, so everything you've come by (even if not directly involving maps) stems from this intention. Flamarande and I seem to've been the most active, although he's been quiet for a week or so now. He and I began leaving messages for each other here, where I guess you'd confirm much of what you've already worked out. A prime motivation was our agreeing via the Village Pump that the use of "historical" in maps' categories was ambiguous, hence what may appear as a focus on a "Maps of"/"Old maps of" distinction. The plan is more evolutionary than master, as we are in no more privileged a position than any other editors here; we just decided to start the process. We're seeking a balance between minimising numbers of categories but not at the cost of creating large category listings (exception: locator maps categories) or losing too many ways to reach a map. (I think Flamarande would agree with this characterisation.) Re mass transit maps, we haven't considered those yet.

Interleaving answers, (begins)

FrankB 07:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll just indent some answers further, and leave you with italic. The reason I mentioned Mass Transit is that I had to research a Map and place it... in all places, in not yet created categories in India. There were a lot of categories having to do with mass transit on the map already. Here is the sequence of edits at that point, plus some link embedding:

18:02, 10 June 2006 (hist) (diff) Image:StraßenbahngleisplanKolkataOktober2004.jpg (change cat Maps --> Maps of cities in India) (top)

17:58, 10 June 2006 (hist) (diff) Category:Maps of cities in India (Genesis - Need to tuck away a map of Kolkata from Maps!) (top)

17:44, 10 June 2006 (hist) (diff) Image:Uurasmap.jpg (recat Maps --> Category:Maps of cities and villages of Russia)

You can see where I added anotation so others would be able to find the city: 'en: w:Kolkata (w:India) Streetcar Track Layout 2004 Note Logo '

I've infered that you had or still have a categorize by year on images when it's known.

Not really; at least, not yet or not consistently. I guess that'd be a consideration for a second pass through the maps. (At present, we're trying to keep the criteria simple.)

I've an impression a lot of thought hasn't been given or accomplished toward standard historical epochs along the lines of Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Age of Discovery, Age of Sail, Age of Steam..., Victorian Era, etcetera; all those fuzzily dated popular groups of years for which their are loads of wikipedia main articles, and which relationally help people think about historical contexts. (Yes, I'm definitely a history buff!)

As regards the Commons overall, I don't know, but suspect your impression is accurate; as regards the Commons' maps, then I'd say it was accurate!  (Again, maybe something for a second pass / review.)

I've been up and down various trees cross referencing Wikipedia to your cats, tagged a few over there with category redirect, et. al.; and moved a few maps where they belonged. The interwiki navigation templates you've seen at least one of, are working well, and one click allows me to adjust wikipedia categorizations to match your system. We probably need to develop a pair of categories signifying a lot of work need done to adjust a sub-categories sub-cats need a lot of work, or such.

Elaboration

Please elaborate...?

I went one better, I implemented it half way. Two templates to auto-tag a category and file it in the tracking category tied respecitively to the their templates. {{WikiPcatNo}} (en.Wikipedia has no matching cat) can be used several ways: 1) To signify a new category is needed on Wiki (No arguement perameter needed), 2) Same need, and links to the category(ies) on WikiP that will need category redirects and cleaned out themselves, 3) When accompanied with a category redirect, to signify the 'empty' category is certified empty and ready to be deleted. Please read over the usage I put up, and verify whether what I just said agrees, and says the same to your eyes. As you'll see there, Anything listed will be autocategorized in Category:WikiP difference with Commons Cats. There is a matching wikipedia template with the same mission and identical category to tag differences comming the other direction. (At the moment, using the template as an example in the other WikiPcat series has them auto-categorized there as well. We can do without the examples, so that will disappear). I also have to alter the template logic to take an #ifdef dependent pair of perameters for the optional links I cite as an example, but that will be easy compared to getting the usage notes straight.

Another as yet unwritten template will be WikiPcatAdj (Adjustments needed) with the coresponding cat: Category: Cat adjust needed. (I'm open to a better name!) {{WikiPcatM}} and one other has this "related" use note:

Similarly, {{WikiPcatAdj}} signifies a category name 'disconnect' between Wikipedia and the commons, signifying an adjustment is needed on the matching Wikipedia category. This is essentially a self-categorizing 'Notice of Work In Progress'. Commons pages where it is included show up on 'Category: Cat adjust needed' forming a 'To-Do list' of categories in Wikipedia where pages must be edited into conformance. In sum, this template signifies editing needed on the Wikipedia Articles to vet them for compliance with the commons categories.

I don't know how much cross-project editing you're planning, but I envision this as an alert tag saying the wikipedia side work is needed. In general, this will constitute moving maps as it does here from those vauge category names you mentioned on the VP. I am not sure creating this one is a good idea and plan to sleep on it, probably for a couple days at least, as it's better to think things through, certainly before creating an unnecessary category!. Plus I wanted your input.

As to the categories and sub-categories and sub-sub-categories (ad infinitum <g>), just tagging with these should allow us to work our way down into the leaves tagging as we go, then emptying and retagging with {{Category redirect}} on the way back out. The work in general, get put on the two list (list or tracking) categories as you begin a reconciliation. We can either use that to join in gang editing a category, or to avoid one another and work in a different category. At the end of the day, it gives us a place to check progress and pointers as to where we might contribute.

Tracking

Perhaps you have some tracking categories already like Category:Historical Period Templates, Category:Templates using ParserFunctions , Category:Succession templates but you can add these ones to your watch list. They all conform to the policy I was reading earlier to duplicate template related categories between the sister projects to aid porting, and if necessary modification. There are a couple more of lesser importance Uncategorized template, is one, iirc.

You're at least one pass-through-the-data ahead of our current situation in Category:Maps – but that's fine; there's no law stating everything has to be done bottom-up. Re ParserFunctions, the wisdom I've received is to avoid using them #if possible, to keep (future) processing demand to a minimum. Seems sensible.

I've seen that arguement skoffed at in voluminous technical detail by some of the tool makers and other programmers. They argue that templates (lookup substitutions) and parsing calculations are what computers are optimized to do, and and that one 'Page Preview' eats up hundreds of thousands of the amount of time it takes the Server systems to parse a command string... which matches my own background knowledge with a BSCE. In sum, it's not a worry. There was a time when they were experimental and they were cause for discussion and controversy. They do want to track them, and study how much they may be slowing the system, but the programmers mostly think that's horse-dung... it's an idea that came out of the discussions and has taken on a life of it's own.

In any event, I need to get to bed, so I'll close this interleaving now, and take it up again below soon. Best regards, // FrankB 07:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Language needs

Is there any German language bi-lingual working over here? If I can read some of the stuff people have put up, I can move things where they belong.

My impression is that the bulk of folk involved here are either U.S. or English-speaking Germans. Do http://babelfish.altavista.com/, http://www.freetranslation.com/, http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php etc not suffice?

I'm sorry you didn't like my 'proto-template' on 'Maps',

{Indent|3}Oooopsie... wrong cat. The graphic is on category:Old maps, Not maps&mdash hadn't gotten to the parent yet save for parking a half dozen or so Maps where they belong!

... but I'd figured to transform it into a more general template with a link display or three down each tree. In any event, formulizing the message and using it in other main category Map nodes strikes me as a good idea.

Replying to your message is my first activity here for a couple of days; I'll have to disengage again in a few minutes, but I'll take a look tomorrow.

Has anyone given any thought to cross-connecting at each branch level with Navigation templates? Well, I'm stoking the old furnace on that. It'd be a help to know the 'population' so everything can be stubbed in at each level.

Again, as regards the maps, not yet (or, at least, not that I've seen). I'm beginning to think your working on this "second level" while I (and anyone else happy to) continue a "first level" pass through the maps, each giving the other level reaction and encouragement, could work well.

I used a succession template in the 10th and 11th centuries[1], iirc, that I will work into a general 'few' arguements template for the various century trees. That particular implimentation is nice as it can be used in the parent category with a simple cut and paste, sans change. The same toolset can be used to tie other branches together (Save the first level under 'Germany') or whatever. The implimentation I used is brute force, but a few modifications should allow something easy to place and use.

Enough for now, time to get some dinner. Best regards, // FrankB 01:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Need a quick vote

I thought I was on wiki-break. Hah! Thank God for friends and email! Lend some vote help please!

1. re: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_15#Fabartus_user_categories This is a bit of spiteful non-sense— at least on the admin cats, imho. Notice the nominator is the same guy I dressed down on the talk link from this page!
2. Another (possibly definitely related) matter is attacking Wikipedia:template:commonstmp... part of the interwiki system I set up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Commonstmp Note to self-don't loose your temper... don't loose your temper,... ad infinitum!

Best! // FrankB 19:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some answers on your '16th' post on my talk! // FrankB 13:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Almost all day

Well, we kept the categories, but they were renamed. The BOT botched that, and I had to go through all the commonscatX templates and fix them. A whole bunch of wikipedia categories were suddenly showing in 'naviagation templates' and other such fun stuff. The BOT really goofed by adding the new names outside the noinclude nesting. I ended up splitting the usage out entirely just so I could verify that each fix was giving the proper cats. It just got too confusing with different templates using different other templates as displayed examples. I've got a prototype in my Sandbox on wikiP, and if you feel the urge, maybe you can help me figure out what is enough, or whether to regroup it thusly, or whatever.

Your enthusiasm continues to be an inspiration – hope you didn't find it too discouraging a day. Re "a prototype in [your] Sandbox", do you mean the whole page as a "prototype" introduction to your work, or one or more of the templates in it...?  Sorry if I'm missing the obvious.

btw- Do you see any value in the 'Obsolete' note I attached here, and if so, is it worth a template?

I'd hope the {{Categoryredirect}} would be sufficient... Meanwhile, suggest "Maps of the history of" as snappier version of "Maps showing the history of" – although I realise there are already a fair few categories using the latter. Pass to BOT with warning to behave...?

Had hoped to move some maps along today. NOT! At least things are stable again, 'cept for the empty template {CommonscatUsage}. Got to get to bed! Hope you're enjoying the weekend... we had 4.5 inches of rain yesterday and today! // FrankB 07:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Have been trying to rationalize Category:Aerial photographs before turning (after deep breath) to Category:Locator maps. Best wishes, David 02:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

And half of today

See: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:WikiP_equalized_with_Commons_Cats and delete if you can. {{Db-catempty}} doesn't work over here! The environement is very different! // FrankB 20:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC) DONE! // fab

Admin needed, I think, to delete; {{speedydb|Superceded by Category:Wikipedia categories equalized with Wikimedia Commons categories.}} should do the job. David 02:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense, I guess you aren't one! Do they have a list over here? Do tell! FrankB 05:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Special:Listusers and select Group: Sysops ...?  David 12:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Early Monday

1. Placed a note on disappearing categories on wikiP Cfd talk:
2. Have an 'stacked notice in mid-edit' on WP/AN on same issue. (Basically, see the Cfd talk)
3. While composing that, found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Europe

and w:Maps of Europe, which raises 'my' eyebrows, at least. Perhaps we can recruit extra hands?

1. Did a partial interwiki of Category:Maps of Europe, but see some wikipedia cats we need to take into the plan... notably, the 'Continents', and notice the prefixed pipe sort using minus before 'Europe'. We ought to standardize similarly.
2. FYI, for any Maps sub-category under a 'administrative category' (Maps of versus Category:Middle Ages, say), I've been prefixing '*' before any text pipe-sort words.

• I'd prefer <space> over <asterisk> – yes/no/good idea/bad idea?  David 12:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Figured I should tell you all the above before completing (2) and going off for a while to real life. Best! // FrankB 17:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops! Almost forgot...

1. Need suggestion on cat name to tag the w::category:maps of Europe, since it's not totally equalized. Something similar to the Category:WikiP_difference_with_Commons_Cats here created by {{WikiPcatNo}}, that will fly on the naming conventions in that crowded opinion environment. I guess a simple {CommonscatDiff} template, sans any display save the cat would suffice to impliment such WIP needs. Give me your recommendations. I'm virtually posative that the long winded 'Equals' cat tagging will draw fire over there eventually as it becomes more widespread. (Category:Wikipedia categories equalized with Wikimedia Commons categories)

Well, since abbreviations not much tolerated – including "backroom" categories, it seems – I haven't thought of anything snappier than "Non-congruent Wikipedia and Commons categories". (Corollary: "Congruent Wikipedia and Commons categories" as snappier version of "Wikipedia categories equalized with Wikimedia Commons categories".)

2. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_of_the_history_of_Europe (Obsolete note... did you decide whether we should templatize that sort of thing?)

Not at present; happy to follow/respond to your lead.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Historical_maps_of_Europe (Note the redlinked cat... a better name Needed too there?) // FrankB 17:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia category redirect (commons)"... To help me – perhaps you as well! – please explain this category's role; although I (think I) understand, reading an explanation may prompt a snappy name. Thanks, David Kernow 12:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Basically ('brain fart') was using two names for one purpose. Fixed up now as I think this was the better name. See Notes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_category_redirect_%28commons%29, or category redirect2 usage or talk for same. All document (including the name not used). Sub-categorized in the WIP cats too. Click your Category:WikiP_difference_with_Commons_Cats link above for see also, and notice cats. // FrankB 19:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Today's evil morning deeds

I see you left a question above... I'll get back to it in a minute after clearing edit buffers. Beginning to think template 'system' is more monstrous than I like.

New players

1. Category:Wikipedia categories matching with Wikimedia Commons categories — discussed above somewhat, I had to commit, and this seemed the best name. Is a sub-cat of the other long winded name, differing by 'matching' (name) for 'equals'. This is MORE WORK NEED WIP category. We can tag, fix up, then retag, etc. Leaves some room for Real Life that way! <g>

2. On the wikipedia side use: w:Template:commonscat1Ra Autocategorizes to it. Note the (hopefully Subtle) display of (WIP) in the commons reference. Otherwise you can't tell what template is applied without paging down to the categories... not good on long pages. (This 'template name' is the first part of the monster. The naming scheme is on the Ropes for 'Maps'-->Evens, Other Cats-->Odds as I implemented over there. (This barely qualifies as bubble-gum and string measure to hold things together. The implication is '3' templates also have to be 'Map' templates of the same 'WIP' sub-type... killing the structure, unless we move all the '4' types to '3s' and make the '4s' MAP+WIP types. If we're going to rearrange, this is early days yet, and this would be the time to do so!)

3. On this side of things: {{WikiPcat1}}, and {{WikiPcat1R}}... which adopts the 'R' suffix like used on en.wikipedia and similar 'WIP' feature, autocat to the new 'matching' WIP-category.

4. Logic suggests we equalize the two systems to minimize confusion and empower the random fly-by editor giving an assist. IIRC, WikiPcat is most used to date. Can we rename templates here, move them, BOT them, recreate with new name and delete them, or what? (Like the above commonscatX system, I'm inclined to revamp to have similar tasking and same naming conventions.)

Per here, I think is going to need the involvement (and skills) of high-level admins/bureaucrats. I'm all for supporting such commons-sense as far as my time and know-howlittle reaches.

5. Oh-almost forgot {{WikiPcatUsage}} along with the matching changes over-there.

6. How about a short list of admins over here to consult with!

See above.

ttfn // FrankB 18:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you planned for this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Congressional_district_maps_of_the_108th_Congress, see also similar cats in parent! //FrankB 20:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Civertan

Thanks for your help! I am not really familiar with Wikis, but I am learning. I will "color" the pages a bit.

Havea great day! Civertan 06:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fabartus#Hi // FrankB 07:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Whaaatszzzz UP?

1. On Maps... I was thinking to start recating things in en.wp cat:Historical Maps of Europe (tagged via category redirect2) and it's sub-cats later this week...

which presupposes you've settled details on political organized lower level groups.

1. I think we need to address the wp CFD and get carte blanche on tagging Maps categories to match those here.
2. Have you done anything with a project yet?
3. Know anything about Category:Hash mark redirected categories, esp. a guideline that has the do's and don'ts?
4. Has Flamarande ever surfaced again (last on May 25th here!) to help you with the maps moves here, and what would you like help with in particular?
5. The alternative is fiction, which is something I like to read more than write about--too many critics! <g>
6. OTHO, if you aren't ready, I really should give 1632 series some attention, not to mention I've obligated myself to breathe life into WPP:series.
7. Now that summer is winding down, I can start planning for more organized efforts, but I didn't want you to feel abandoned.
8. I need to deal with some loose ends on the templates, but that won't take more than a day or so. After that, it'll need lobbying on the email lists to get some system software support. Neither scheme {{Sisterlinks}} is going far without something of that nature. I've enough data now to argue the case once I put it together.
9. So what do you need? (Yer month is up! Sheesh! And I thought you were over here slaving away w/o me and missing my help[2]! <BSEG>
10. Gotta go - it's Pats time!

Best! // FrankB 00:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Also left 'see this here' note on : David Kernow

Hello again, Frank!  I was about to shut-up shop, but will leave this quick acknowledgement first. Hope you are feeling refreshed on balance. I'll look more closely at the above sometime tomorrow, but for now you'll find some idea of what's been preoccupying me here and here. Neither are yet ready for folk to start correcting, but should be "sooner" rather than "later"; I've reached Sri Lanka in my scan through the former and additions to the latter. As regards the point of the venture (apart from providing something for Wikipedia) the latter's TOC suggests around 40 distinct types of national subdivision in English, so around 40 possible "Locator maps for..." category types here. Not surprisingly, however, the bulk should be a smaller number of particularly common types: cities (as administrative units), communes, counties, departments, districts, municipalities, provinces and regions. Once I've worked from Sri Lanka to the end, I'll be returning here hopefully far wiser as regards managing maps of countries' subdivisions.

I'll be away for a few days from Monday, but will revisit the above before leaving. Thanks for getting back in touch, David 01:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

PS Which of these two layouts, A (as linked above) or B do you prefer?  (Yes, B is a noticeably incomplete version as I've made the additions to A, but it'd be reasonably straightforward to convert A's format to B.)

Update

My going away has been delayed, perhaps cancelled, so here are some responses to your queries above:

1. w:Category:Historical Maps of Europe: Well, in lieu of further detail, I'd certainly propose renaming the category to "Old maps of Europe" and then any corresponding subcategories per their Commons counterparts. I'll need to reacquaint myself with the maps categories here on the Commons as I've been away researching national administrative (sub)divisions.
2. Twinning Wikipedia and Commons categories: I guess the secret is to make the Wikipedia categories as low-key as possible, although whether or not that is possible...
3. Project?: If you mean a "Commons:"-type page for the Commons' map categories, then no, not yet; the (sub)divisions research has taken me elsewhere.
4. Category:Hash mark redirected categories: Wasn't aware of this, so thanks for spotting; my impression is that hash-redirected categories (what I take to be "hard" redirects) are a no-no and, having read the spiel on the Category:Hash mark redirected categories page, perhaps I now know the reason: hash-redirecting categories is how Commons marks categories for renaming by its bots...?
5. Flamarande: Looking at his contributions page, I fear he has disappeared...
6. Alternative...?
7. 1632 series, WPP:series: Go for it, as it'll be a few days yet before I've finished administrative (sub)divisions on Wikipedia.
8. Not abandoned: Thank you!
9. {{Sisterlinks}}: As/when there's a specific sticking-point, let me know and I'll wander by/vote/etc.
10. My needs: A little more time to finish (sub)divisions research on Wikipedia (and, for now, your preference re A and B in the PS above).

Yours, David 12:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Orgullomissing

Hi David, Orgullomoore is indeed Orgullomissing, which unfortunately seems to have made his useful bots very quiet. We do indeed need to get them moving again. Feel free to be proactive on this. I have not been spending a lot of time online lately. cheers, pfctdayelise (说什么?) 14:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:States of Germany

re: These redlinks from Naming scheme, right or wrong?

• Image:Austrasie752.jpg will need same identical categories top to bottom, which should finish cleaning out States of Germany.
• Which brings up the point of how does your municipal research tie into this category name, which has far more utility on en.wikipedia vice here... or so it seems. (notify: Template:Ute) // FrankB 00:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Just found where I've been seeing 'maps showing history of,' see he and and me which indirectly needs to be added to your map category write up. (You are basically working on a guideline with my able nagging!)

FYI-Someone has been updating Template:Interwikitmp-grp (Edit Discussion links Page history) and related templates (?) per your suggestion, I think--got a whole list of edit changes over here on the commons by email and that was the sole important change I observed (I was being kicked off my office computer by my son who needs my graphics card for MS Flight Simulator X and a few other things. Just saw that closing the email... but was a list of changes!) Unfortunately, the place triggering conditional inclusion is not being implemented.

Harumph... can't find out who--just an IP here and no trail I can yet find on wp. // FrankB 01:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Can't believe this

... I'm friggin' editing while the PATs are playing an championship game! Yikes!

re: Category:Historical maps of New York City
Hey, see this category. I didn't create the new since I'm not moving maps at the moment. I stumbled in there by round about routes... subway cars. <G> Anyway, need to finish that wikipedia stuff up but there are some issues here to think on.

   A) Most of the Category:New York Central Railroad sub-cat is NOT maps material, whereas the other IS mostly maps. So need to park that elsewhere... and so I raise this question: What's a url to google-search the commons site for both category and say railways, rail transport, or railroads (The later being common only in the USA's English.) [I suck at searching, and everything I try using 'site:' seems to find pre-cached photo's on google, not commons pages.]]
     this bookmark finds WP:AN/I archives.
     this fails in intent.

   B) FYI--I copied over {{category redirect2}} here and set a separate category up (Category:Category redirect2 as a WIP category. If we can google the cats here, such an effort for maps or Historical can be used to similarly tag things which need corrected in the identical way, or so I suggest.

(Yer a witness to history: Asante Samuel put the Colts down by 18 as I wrote this! <BSEG>) Cheers!

(Hope I'm right the Bears will be easier to BEAT than New Orleans! Looking Good in this one with the end of the half coming up fast!) // FrankB 01:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied at User talk:Fabartus#Re ...Can't believe this

Response:

re: I don't try anything this fancy with Google, although if wanted/needed to do something along these lines, I guess I'd try to find that "use Google to search [Wikipedia/Commons/etc]" page that's displayed whenever Wikipedia/Commons/etc's own search facility is offline. Yours, David (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't know that I've seen that... I'll look. Didn't know how to google AN/I till got some help asking on AN/I, so I saved the syntax in bookmarks. TTTL--got stuff to finish all over! // FrankB 19:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I see you did Neustrie752

by email <G>

Where I've been finishing this last post on your sandbox just now interleaved... <G> (Not comprehensive... some edits along the way too!)

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Westphalia
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_maps
3. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_by_theme
4. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_by_century_shown
5. Make sure to look at Category:Munich... I've got one like that for US Navy Submarines that is one browser or t'other, pending saving that is far more impressive... 40 cross-wiki category links in a nicely formatted wraped line. Tight and pretty damn useful. Strategic use of those (Cat see also W2/W2c and Cat see also) can be very good for keeping people straight about how the system is configured, imho.

Sigh!

We need to take a good look at the implications of various subcats now loading your prime category Category:Maps. Political... Maps by Theme, Maps by Cartographer, Maps by century made, Maps showing XXth-century history... etc., etc., ad nauseum.

There is a whole spectrum of 'fill in this datum stuff' we need some kind of template to handle for tagging each image!. Something like the Books templates on wp will have to be made up, as otherwise no one is going to remember half of what needs done! I did one map and added five cats, and there are some things I'm certain I missed!

wrt to language, I think the best that can be done is to make a clear unambiguous title and let the interwiki translators worry about their tounges. There are language templates (See:Category:Categories my interleaved note with see also links inside {{En}}) for them to apply the approved multilingual text if they want. It's not really our problem.

I think you can be an insomniac for both of us... I'm hearing my pillow calling. Suggest we take this maps discussion to the old page or to the sandbox talk. Leave me a note here as to where. Ditto this maps stuff on wp--just ping one another and keep thread in one place. Hmmmmm, logical... Commons:Category talk:Maps! Maybe start by cross posting much of the above. I forget where we parked that lovely table of yours. (Did I land my note on south asia country somewhere? I need to close out my browsers and reboot!) G'night! // FrankB 06:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I see you did Neustrie752...

Yes; at least I think so, hope so... I didn't create the redlink categories as I'm still not sure about this "Old maps of" vs. "Old maps of the history of" business... although, having just typed these names again, perhaps the distinction should be made. Maintaining the distinction, however, as/when folk add or move maps...

Re the rest, I too finally seem to be tiring, so will also try the pillow again and catch up sometime tomorrow. I agree that Category talk:Maps seems the appropriate place for "washing the linen". Thanks, David (talk) 06:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope...

It was in the next browser over... I got lost looking for the Subs edits based on the browser contents before backing to this:

• Can only conclude I jinxed them! Sniff, Sniff. Sigh. Well, maybe Belichick will ease the purse strings and retain some talent--he was not a happy camper at games end!

Bhutan and Image:Bt-map.png w/virtually no maps categories... This description of being in or of 'South Asia' strikes me as some need for a regional Maps level above country level. Did you guys discuss such when outlining this scheme? My email question on Oceana goes to the same point--greater geographic groupings per normal vernacular descriptive phrases.

We can probably jin up some blank maps as visually defining such regions, and tack them right into category pages. Connect the whole schmear with a {{Cat see also}} and Template:Cat see also W2 (Edit Discussion links Page history)/Template:Cat see also W2c or {{Succession}} (can rig that so have north, south, east, west and central by region for quick hops inside a greater region, save I'm not suggesting a split to those five necessarily [brainstorming only here, I am!]

At least didn't loose the thoughts there. I think I'm going to print this page out tomarrow and see if I can flesh out the sandbox from that revealed much-time-spaced-out verbiage. Sigh! // FrankB 06:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Make sure to see my answer on my talk to your post on above sub-section. Regards--enjoy the email if you were fibbing about tired eye-lids! <G> Best! // FrankB 06:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally

I thimk you should make this with the same foreground color as the background and let the people visiting the page make it all up from their imagination... <G>. Sent you an unimportant email, but just got email notification of your change, hence I'm kibitzing. G'morning. // FrankB 12:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Frank – good morning!

In case you're wondering, yes, I'm not ignoring your recent messages but restarting the category scheme as part of my response. By following the pattern of the others, I hope it'll be less wordy (i.e. quicker/easier to use).

...I thimk you should make this with the same foreground color as the background...

At present the whole table is background:transparent, but your comment makes me wonder if different (light) background colors for the breakdown on the left and notes on the right might be a good idea...?  Yours, David (talk) 12:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking over your shoulder

I've got tabs opened here, sandbox, and Maps, etc.

1. You missed Maps by hemisphere
2. Thinking the Maps by theme[3] is a way to uncomplicate this. Time is a theme, so Maps by century go in there, and do periodization sorts of cats
3. Maps by people: By uploader, cartographer, ...
4. You might consider Region or Arbitrary Region... whatever

Is it your intent to replicate the category tree of Old maps where ever it spreads? Old maps of city, Old maps of France, Old maps of Munich's subways? As one contiguous tree, including empty intermediary cats I would presume? I'm trying to figure out just how far this forking could go. Old is just one attribute. What was the rationale of promulgating that attribute onto other geographic divisions? Wouldn't it make more sense if Old maps of Germany was just a sub-cat of Maps of Germany? You seem to be wanting to create a parallel tree, or am I mistaking that? (Reply here, every time you change a page I visited, I get an email anyway! <G> // FrankB 14:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I just now figured out what your question on the transparency meant above -- Suite yourself.

A) Just introduced an sizing category of ponderous perportions to decat Category:Maps. See my fiddles with your table. Hope we didn't Edit conflict. B) I'd forgotten about that: User:Fabartus/EuroCats. I'm going to go off and play at fixing up templates. Need to run errands, should go to sleep. If you want input, email. I'll check back now and again, too. ttfn // FrankB 14:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Maps by hemisphere

Do you mean Category:Hemispheres or creating a Category:Maps by hemisphere...?  If the latter, I'm not sure if that's a common way people search for maps...?

Yeah, that's what I stubbed in. Your table is going by graduated sizing, so fits somewhat.-- FAB

Maps by theme

I think this arose during the previous onslaught; if I remember correctly, it was felt that not all thematic categories ought to sit "out of sight" in Maps by theme, e.g. the Maps by century shown (and, I guess, the other "Maps by" categories). I reckon, though, that those thematic categories outside Maps by theme should also appear within it.

Attributes might be another good word, so Maps by Themes, attributes, or qualities??? -- FAB

Maps by people

Could be misleading (e.g. Maps by uploader) but I see the idea... Not sure, though...

I'm being very loose with names right now... trying to root out organizing concepts to diffuse the population some. -- FAB

"Region or Arbitrary Region"

Do you mean Maps by region or the like...?  Again, if I recall correctly, the feeling was that this would be too wide (i.e. half all map categories would probably qualify, if not more) but I don't think any "decision" was made...

If we define the regions, need not be. I put something down on that to you I think... maybe in the unfinished edit in Category talk:Maps. Basically, by way of wiki stub sorting, found various regional stub categories, which cat pages mirrored my own suggestion or thought (Chicken or egg thingy there! <G>) that the way to clarify such was to place a map and cross-links right on the category page. So there they were with a map of south asia...

I'll root that out soon and drop it on you since my note is now better here in time and place. Oh, BTW--These would be arbitrary regions--not everyone would define the terms the same always, but we just point to the map tagging (so to speak).--FAB

Is it your intent to replicate the category tree of Old maps where ever it spreads? Old maps of city, Old maps of France, Old maps of Munich's subways? ...

I think so; for every category "Maps of X", if any maps older than the 70 or so years appear, a category "Old maps of X" (categorized [[Maps of X| ]]) should then be made; I guess they weren't being made in anticipation in case they were subsequently deleted as unused...

Wouldn't it make more sense if Old maps of Germany was just a sub-cat of Maps of Germany?

I think that's the intention; looking at the example Old maps of Germany, I'd say it's basic categorization is under Maps of Germany, with Old maps of Europe and Old maps by country the ends of alternate trails. I suppose it's the usual game of trying to balance number of categories vs. accomodating various search approaches.

Yours hot-fingeredly, David (talk) 14:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Jes keep those hot fingers to yourself, Bud! <g> Ok, Old maps of Regions holds Old Maps of Europe and friends, there are certain to be some old maps of bigger areas too, so I guess it plays ball.

Above you said something that made me think you weren't taking the power of {{cat see also}} into account. [Yeah, the themes answer...] It essentially creates a short paragraph size set of links that are cat names... up to forty. That's a lot of visibility we can tag onto the upper cats for what is below so people do find the correct lower category. A second para size for all these (other themed--may as well be honest! <G>) thematic things.

Think of it this way, it minimizes the tall categories presentation and presents a heading of sorts to those. Later dude!--FAB is FrankB 15:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Acknowledged. Yes, you're ahead of me here; I'm still pondering the underlying approach(es) to Maps and subcategories and an efficient way to indicate the structure (i.e. what to present via Commons:Category scheme Maps). David Kernow (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Trying as ever to keep in touch with the various threads:

1. The maps scheme proposal is now here and I've mentioned it to User:Electionworld.
2. Above you said something that made me think you weren't taking the power of {{cat see also}} into account...
   This looks intriguing and hopefully very useful; my second thought was to consider how its output might be made less dense, e.g. for that sizeable example you [provide immediately below]. Maybe if the categories were · spaced · apart · a little · like · this – or perhaps tabulated in some (simple) way...?

Yours, David (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Here, have a quicky

There are 42 subcategories to this category shown below (more may be shown on subsequent pages). Pulled out: Maps of fictional places or locations, Old maps, put one back and see what happens.

 See also categories: Maps indicating history, Maps by cartographer, Maps by century made, Maps by century shown, Maps by continent, Maps by country subdivision, Maps by language used, Maps by source, Maps by subcontinent, Maps by theme, Maps by type, Maps by uploader, Aerial photographs, Animated maps, Maps of astronomical bodies, Maps of cities, Maps of countries, Maps of disputed territories, Maps of empires, Map engravings, Maps of former territories, Hemispheres, Maps of islands, Locator maps, Map images that should use vector graphics, Maps incorporating flags, Maps of municipalities by country, Maps of oceans, SVG maps, Maps of seas, Site plans, Subcontinental maps, Map symbols, Map templates, Maps of time zones, Topographic maps, WikiAtlas, Maps of the world, World maps and Map placeholders.

It is intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers, that we could fork that logic, and use 'text=' syntax to make our own header lines other than See also Categories. // FrankB 15:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• FYI- Need to defer seeing your latest in sandbox. {{W2}} lost on TfD... please support keeping W2c here whilst I fight that in deletion review. // FrankB 18:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• PING! - Looking good! I've been doing fixups and porting all day. Cheers! // FrankB 05:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking over your shoulder II

re: thanks, I added a map type you missed in the SB... I figured you should work out it's indenting and how high they might go... regions again I think. My wife's having a bird--another all nighter, but I finally closed up a couple browsers. The interwikitmp-grp made it out of TfD, so I've been hammering it into shape most all of yesterday til now. I really need you to weigh in on VfD's: for W2 and W2C (here). They're great time savers cause I can search and replace... Just go to WP TFd, I said it already there. Also laid down a link to the one here for W2C.

Have responded here (on your Wikipedia talkpage); meanwhile, I don't see {{W2c}} being challenged here (i.e. the Commons version)...?

Proof posative am juggling too many balls! This was sitting in a browser window unsaved since the 26th! Jes gettin' back to check dat one --Avoiding edit conflicts three too! If I saved it, (!) that is, I made some comments in the maps talk. // FrankB 14:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, unfortunately – unless my cache needs purging or the like...  Hope all well, David (talk) 18:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Too many sites--too many days separation in time, me thinks! little ping! // FrankB 21:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

One of my missing edits just found

From circa the 15th-16th, from the related history track records!

1. The maps scheme proposal is now here and I've mentioned it to User:Electionworld.

2. Above you said something that made me think you weren't taking the power of {{cat see also}} into account...

This looks intriguing and hopefully very useful; my second thought was to consider how its output might be made less dense, e.g. for that sizeable example you [provide immediately below]. Maybe if the categories were · spaced · apart · a little · like · this – or perhaps tabulated in some (simple) way...?

Yours, David (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Here, have a quicky

(Find this sub-sub label in the margin above!

On that spacing suggestion... no reason why you should not. The current spacing is comma delimited with an 'no-break-space' (nbsp) because that's the way see also of the Keystone comedy was coded. I was just into that big if-then-else chain again today with the equivalent to catlst / {{Cat see also}}, my new Template:Tlxw, as the programmable label came out wrong --nested in the wrong spot if-then-else structure.

As a matter of fact, I was way late for dinner tonight so could finish-- I'd just spent an a bit over an hour plus preparing 'the usages' to merge into a single common usage page (like a doc page but shared by several templates) -- all such as 'catlst' / 'cat see also' / and 'cat see also W2' can really be covered by the same /doc type files and etc. including template list.

That effort is already using SITENAME tests to skip usage for the commons actual pages which make no sense as a Wikipedia name (cat see also Wikipedia--a nod to the English as a second language crowd) A judicious if test or two and the categories are straight as well. I been doing a lot of that sort of editing-- even wrote a header template like doc page pattern transcluded but damn-if-I-know what I called it now--haven't used it yet--just originated it yesterday knowing the need. Now that I'm back from dinner, I'm going to bed soon, but I don't know how to code one of these ( · ) [? dots???] and I wouldn't recommend using a pipe as too risky.

I just tested notepad, and it'll do the global search and replace no problem, no fuss for these ( · ) whatchamacallits. I'll do that next time I play with catlst. I think a generalized list utility is in order anyway. Default to mainspace, param to either category or template, and if tests true for either of those, have an auto-parm call a macro that returns these ( · ) or the CSL formating. 'Dot-er', we'll call it—it even takes up about the same number of characters as comma nbsp! Yay!

? maybe can code directly--and indirectly (specify the param or auto-define it so can have 'articles' delimit the same way-- and put in the ( · ) instead of comma no-break-space. I'm too fried to get analytical right now--it's midnight and tonight I'm getting some sleep! (The wind is howling and there will be hell to pay tomarrow from drifts!) Here's the key question-- space dot nbsp or nbsp dot space. I think the first, that'll keep the beginning column after a wrap prefaced by the dot... which should look okay. That is the nbsp joins to the following link, not the one previous.

I be done... going straight to bed! Yawn. // FrankB 22:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (Only nine days late... but I'm finally gaining again. And now you know I'm not hallucinating about not parking these sometimes! <g> This month's been a long quarter!)

Atlas.

David,

you might be interested in joining the Commons:WikiProject Atlas. Electionworld 14:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for this invitation. Since I've been aware of the Atlas – which, as I was away from the Commons for several months, hasn't been that long – I've been impressed by its scope, presentation and consistency. So, yes, it's a project to which I'd love to contribute – but – I wouldn't want to sign up and then become not much more than a passenger (i.e. contribute little and only very occasionally). This, unfortunately, is what I'm afraid might happen, as I already find myself involved in various Wikipedia threads and only recently have begun visiting the Commons again in order to work on the maps categories. Hence my "associated" description in the list of participants. Thanks again, David Kernow (talk) 21:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

PS If you're able to spare a few moments, comments on this would be much appreciated, not least for any dovetailing with the Atlas that might be required. I've also included this link in the WikiAtlas participant description.

Image Tagging Image:Galileo's telescope.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Galileo's telescope.jpg. I notice the image page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikimedia Commons (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page. If the content is a derivative of a copyrighted work, you need to supply the names and a licence of the original authors as well.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag, then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use {{self|cc-by-sa-2.5}} to release it under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license or {{PD-self}} to release it into the public domain. See Commons:Copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find all your uploads using the Gallery tool. Thank you. Iamunknown 23:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry not to've responded to your message more promptly. Unfortunately, I was unable to confirm whether or not the picture was for free use, but during my research found a similar version on a NASA webpage, http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mystique/history/1600.html. Would this qualify...?  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

PS Thanks for thinking to notify me on Wikipedia as well.

No problem. I am doubtful that the image on NASA's website is in the public domain. I have, however, sent an e-mail to marsoutreach AT jpl DOT nasa DOT gov. Also, I discovered that the telescope is held at the Museo della Scienza, Florence, Italy. I do not know the relevant copyright laws in Italy, but perhaps we could get an image from our friends at the Italian Wikipedia. --Iamunknown 01:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Spanish roundel

...I've disabled {{Superseded}} at Image:Spanish Air Force roundel.png as "Spain.svg" is too vague. Can you can rename it or upload an SVG version of "Spanish Air Force roundel.png"...?  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 23:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I agree Spain.svg is a bad name for it, however, I'm unsure what the proper etiquite or protocol to have it renamed is. I have, as a result of your note, however, uploaded Image:Roundel of the Spanish Air Force.svg which I just created to stand it its stead. What should be done with Image:Spain.svg? Cheers.—Ketil Trout ^(<><!) 00:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for this belated reply!  Thanks for creating Image:Roundel of the Spanish Air Force.svg; in order for it to supercede Image:Spain.svg, I've added a {{Duplicate}} tag to the latter – which I think (hope!) is the correct action – and left a note with its creator. Yours, David (talk) 12:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Modified template

re: this diff, which reinstates some formating someone deleted in the recent past while we've been busy elsewhere...

I thought it a good idea to reference the new scheme specification, so people know where to look and comment... etc. This edit is what generated the impulse to move the proposal off center and make it a page alone. I got sick and tired of having to recall the sytax of that paragraph!

In any event, if it's to be used, it's overdue and needs the status of a guideline page. I get an impression, some of the Atlas work is possibly contradictory in Atlas of Germany. In particular, need to park those locator maps and such properly. I may be able to do some recatting soon going forward as I've taken to doing that while watching TV with the wife... only fair... she's usually playing some online game at the same time. (Not what you'd call a good environment for great conversation--this be self-defense on my part! <g>)

Cheers! // FrankB 16:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC) (Template:Ute)

Finalizing {{X5}}

1. Am soon to be about Finalizing... stand clear!
2. Answer: here
3. I can live w/de English Wikipedia long form, tho' think I'll trim the odd cases so the heading stays on one line.
4. Got a better 'uniform' name to suggest than Othersister? Or do I just stay with Wikipediacat1A and Commonscat1A?
5. Cheers // FrankB 14:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. You need to archive! (and if you want a second opinion, yer ugly too! <G>) w/Ping Template:Ute

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File:Antoine Quentin Fouquier-Tinville (1746-1795), French revolutionary.jpg

Hello,

Someone has asked on the french Reference Desk where does this picture come from. Could you add in the description page informations about the painter and/or the painting where it has been cropped from ?

Thanx in advance. Duckysmokton ^blabla 13:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

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