English subtitles for clip: File:ICANN History Project - Interview with Ira Magaziner (102E).webm

1
00:00:10,010 --> 00:00:11,970
Ira Magaziner, Thank you for joining us.

2
00:00:11,970 --> 00:00:19,978
Ira was from 1993 to 1998 the Senior Advisor for Policy Development for President Clinton.

3
00:00:19,978 --> 00:00:23,982
Ira, Vint Cerf is always referred to as the Father of the Internet.

4
00:00:23,982 --> 00:00:26,985
Someone once said, “Well, if Vint Cerf is the Father of the Internet,

5
00:00:26,985 --> 00:00:28,987
Ira Magaziner is the Father of ICANN.”

6
00:00:28,987 --> 00:00:38,997
I suppose that’s true in a way. It was an idea that I conceived of and then helped put into effect.

7
00:00:38,997 --> 00:00:43,960
How did it come about? You say that so simply, “I conceived of it.”

8
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,962
Well, if I can provide some context.

9
00:00:45,962 --> 00:00:46,963
Please.

10
00:00:46,963 --> 00:00:50,967
In 1995 President Clinton approached me and said,

11
00:00:50,967 --> 00:00:56,973
“Would you coordinate a team that could help set a plan for what I would do

12
00:00:56,973 --> 00:01:01,978
if I were to be re-elected to help keep the good economy going that we’ve helped start?”

13
00:01:01,978 --> 00:01:06,983
And I formed a high-level team at the White House

14
00:01:06,983 --> 00:01:12,989
among certain Cabinet agencies and what I understood was that long-term growth

15
00:01:12,989 --> 00:01:15,992
really depended upon technology waves, in other words,

16
00:01:15,992 --> 00:01:20,955
major technology advances that then play out into economic progress.

17
00:01:20,955 --> 00:01:25,960
And we did an analysis that said, “Look, there are three major technological advances

18
00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:30,965
that have taken place – one being the Internet, the second being the sequencing of the human genome,

19
00:01:30,965 --> 00:01:36,971
and the third being renewable energy – that could lead to long-term growth.”

20
00:01:36,971 --> 00:01:43,978
And we decided the Internet was the ripest one to really accelerate economic growth

21
00:01:43,978 --> 00:01:47,982
that the U.S. had been leader in developing Internet and related technologies,

22
00:01:47,982 --> 00:01:50,944
and that what was lacking was a policy framework, a global policy framework

23
00:01:50,944 --> 00:01:54,948
that could be implemented, that could allow the Internet to take off.

24
00:01:54,948 --> 00:01:59,953
So we spent 1995-1996 developing a paper

25
00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:04,958
on what would be required to make the Internet successful,

26
00:02:04,958 --> 00:02:13,967
and it included what we saw, I mean, it included efforts to deal with copyright issues,

27
00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:18,972
deal with digital signatures, deal with privacy issues, issues of censorship,

28
00:02:18,972 --> 00:02:22,976
issues of coordination, technical coordination, and so on.

29
00:02:22,976 --> 00:02:28,982
And what we found was that in a way there were a lot of people

30
00:02:28,982 --> 00:02:30,984
who wanted to invest in the Internet.

31
00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:34,988
They saw the potential, the technology, but it seemed very uncertain to them

32
00:02:34,988 --> 00:02:37,991
as to whether it was robust enough to handle

33
00:02:37,991 --> 00:02:39,993
all that investment that they wanted to put in.

34
00:02:39,993 --> 00:02:45,999
So, for example, as you know the Internet is coordinated by a series of servers.

35
00:02:45,999 --> 00:02:50,003
One of my first days in looking at this, I went to a couple of universities

36
00:02:50,003 --> 00:02:52,005
where the servers were in the basements and I could walk in

37
00:02:52,005 --> 00:02:54,007
and I could just pull the plug. I mean, there was no security.

38
00:02:54,007 --> 00:02:58,970
There was nothing. I also found out as I was trying to put together

39
00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:02,974
the policy paper of what needed to be done

40
00:03:02,974 --> 00:03:08,980
that there were 53 lawsuits at that time challenging the validity

41
00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:12,984
of the Internet routing system in courts all around the world.

42
00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:19,991
And at that time, the IANA – the numbering system – was coordinated by Jon Postel

43
00:03:19,991 --> 00:03:24,996
at the University of Southern California out of an office that was treacherous to walk in.

44
00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:29,000
It was a small office. You walk in and there were piles of paper everywhere and so on.

45
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,961
And I gathered that at an early Internet Society meeting

46
00:03:31,961 --> 00:03:34,964
when there were only 1,000 people on the Internet, somebody said,

47
00:03:34,964 --> 00:03:36,966
“Hey, we need somebody to keep track of the addresses,”

48
00:03:36,966 --> 00:03:38,968
and he raised his hand and there it was.

49
00:03:38,968 --> 00:03:42,972
And then on the other hand you had Network Solutions, a company,

50
00:03:42,972 --> 00:03:45,975
and he did what he did under a DARPA contract – a Defense Department contract –

51
00:03:45,975 --> 00:03:49,979
[Network] Solutions which coordinated the Domain Name System,

52
00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:52,982
a company in Virginia, under a U.S. Commerce Department contract,

53
00:03:52,982 --> 00:03:55,985
and the two of them didn’t really get along very well

54
00:03:55,985 --> 00:03:58,988
and there were all these lawsuits challenging his authority,

55
00:03:58,988 --> 00:04:01,991
University of Southern California was being sued,

56
00:04:01,991 --> 00:04:03,952
Commerce Department was being sued, and so on.

57
00:04:03,952 --> 00:04:06,955
And so there was a very uncertain legal environment.

58
00:04:06,955 --> 00:04:11,960
I also was visited by people from the European Union and elsewhere

59
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,965
who said, “We are concerned that this is really a U.S. government controlled entity

60
00:04:16,965 --> 00:04:20,969
and we think your Defense Department and CIA and so on are controlling it

61
00:04:20,969 --> 00:04:23,972
and we’re nervous about signing up to that.”

62
00:04:23,972 --> 00:04:28,977
Members of Congress visiting saying, “This is ours. We invented it and we should keep it,”

63
00:04:28,977 --> 00:04:33,982
fueled by lobbyists who wanted to make sure that we kept it in a certain way.

64
00:04:33,982 --> 00:04:37,944
So there were a lot of these issues and then there was the

65
00:04:37,944 --> 00:04:39,946
– I forget the exact name – but the Moral League of something,

66
00:04:39,946 --> 00:04:44,951
all the talking about all the Internet pornography and how we have to censor the Internet,

67
00:04:44,951 --> 00:04:49,956
and then there were moves in Europe and Canada, elsewhere,

68
00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:53,960
to put a bit tax on every bit of transmission in the Internet.

69
00:04:53,960 --> 00:05:01,968
There was moves among the International Trade community to put up tariffs.

70
00:05:01,968 --> 00:05:06,973
There was debates going on about Intellectual Property protection and so on.

71
00:05:06,973 --> 00:05:10,977
So there were all these uncertainties that existed that were holding back

72
00:05:10,977 --> 00:05:18,985
what we thought can be a potentially huge economic vehicle for growth globally.

73
00:05:18,985 --> 00:05:21,988
So what we set about to do in an initial paper we wrote

74
00:05:21,988 --> 00:05:25,992
was to decide how to address each of these issues

75
00:05:25,992 --> 00:05:29,996
and we came up with policy prescriptions which then would require

76
00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:34,000
global negotiations to get sign-up globally for this.

77
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,003
And the ICANN piece was one piece of that

78
00:05:37,003 --> 00:05:42,008
– how to handle the technical coordination and a lot of the lawsuits were about that.

79
00:05:42,008 --> 00:05:45,970
There were people with so-called AlterNIC solutions and so on,

80
00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:51,976
and the USC people wanted to get out from underneath the lawsuits they had

81
00:05:51,976 --> 00:05:55,980
and they wanted the government to protect them and the government didn’t want to do it and so on.

82
00:05:55,980 --> 00:06:00,985
So basically what we did is we issued a paper in 1996 after Clinton got elected

83
00:06:00,985 --> 00:06:03,988
which talked about how to deal with each of these issues,

84
00:06:03,988 --> 00:06:10,995
and we went and negotiated a treaty at the International Trade body

85
00:06:10,995 --> 00:06:13,998
to keep the Internet free of tariffs.

86
00:06:13,998 --> 00:06:17,960
We set up legislation to get the Internet Tax Freedom Act

87
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,966
which would allow for no taxation on Internet sales.

88
00:06:23,966 --> 00:06:26,969
We got international convention on digital signatures

89
00:06:26,969 --> 00:06:29,972
so that they would be recognized and negotiated that.

90
00:06:29,972 --> 00:06:35,978
We negotiated the global copyright agreements

91
00:06:35,978 --> 00:06:38,981
that could protect Internet investments,

92
00:06:38,981 --> 00:06:43,986
and a variety of other measures that were all done in 1997 and 1998.

93
00:06:43,986 --> 00:06:49,992
With ICANN, that represented in some ways the phoniest problem,

94
00:06:49,992 --> 00:06:54,956
because the Internet Society felt that they should have control of that.

95
00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:58,960
There were other bodies – the International Telecommunications Union –

96
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,963
who after 10 years of rejecting the Internet Protocols

97
00:07:01,963 --> 00:07:03,965
all of a sudden decided they should take control of the Internet

98
00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:08,970
once it started to take off and they had the weight of the U.N. behind them.

99
00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:13,975
And you had various other groups that all had conflicting ideas

100
00:07:13,975 --> 00:07:15,977
and, of course, the people bringing the lawsuits.

101
00:07:15,977 --> 00:07:20,982
So what I thought about was that we need to do something new here,

102
00:07:20,982 --> 00:07:25,945
that if the U.N. takes this over, it will take way too long.

103
00:07:25,945 --> 00:07:27,947
The U.N. and also even the European Union

104
00:07:27,947 --> 00:07:31,951
wanted to have government set standards for the Internet.

105
00:07:31,951 --> 00:07:34,954
But yet the U.N. would seem like a natural place to go, right?

106
00:07:34,954 --> 00:07:38,958
It would. And I expect the U.N. but it’s way too slow-moving

107
00:07:38,958 --> 00:07:41,961
for something like the Internet, way too bureaucratic.

108
00:07:41,961 --> 00:07:44,964
It takes 10 years to get something past the ITU.

109
00:07:44,964 --> 00:07:46,966
The Internet was very fast-moving technology

110
00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:51,971
and what we had to do was, you know, the very essence of the Internet

111
00:07:51,971 --> 00:07:55,975
was a de-centralized medium where the creativity of everybody

112
00:07:55,975 --> 00:07:59,979
could create new standards, create new technologies, create new everything,

113
00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:01,981
and the last thing you wanted to do is make that all

114
00:08:01,981 --> 00:08:04,984
have to go through some bureaucracy to get approved, right?

115
00:08:04,984 --> 00:08:07,487
And that’s the only way that the U.N. agency can work

116
00:08:07,487 --> 00:08:09,989
and they also have 100-some people at the table, right?

117
00:08:09,989 --> 00:08:15,995
So it would have been crippling for the Internet to have that happen.

118
00:08:15,995 --> 00:08:19,999
On the other hand, if you had the sort of anarchy that was going on

119
00:08:19,999 --> 00:08:24,003
where the Internet Society claimed this, USC had this, Jon Postel this, that,

120
00:08:24,003 --> 00:08:29,008
and all these lawsuits, then that gave no protection.

121
00:08:29,008 --> 00:08:31,969
It was kind of like a Wild West environment that people didn’t want to invest into.

122
00:08:31,969 --> 00:08:33,971
And then you had various corporate interest groups

123
00:08:33,971 --> 00:08:36,974
who wanted to control things and so on.

124
00:08:36,974 --> 00:08:38,976
So it seemed to me that the best way to do this

125
00:08:38,976 --> 00:08:44,982
was that you needed something that could move faster than a U.N. bureaucracy.

126
00:08:44,982 --> 00:08:47,985
With all the different stakeholders in the Internet,

127
00:08:47,985 --> 00:08:49,987
you needed something that would be stakeholder based

128
00:08:49,987 --> 00:08:54,992
and more democratic in its approach so that people had the buy-in to it.

129
00:08:54,992 --> 00:08:57,995
You needed something that would be recognized by governments,

130
00:08:57,995 --> 00:09:00,998
and this was very important, because that would protect against the lawsuits.

131
00:09:00,998 --> 00:09:04,961
So you had to get the U.S., the EU, the Japanese, the Australians,

132
00:09:04,961 --> 00:09:06,963
others to recognize it.

133
00:09:06,963 --> 00:09:07,964
Yeah, had to get a lot of buy-in.

134
00:09:07,964 --> 00:09:09,966
But you had to because of that framework

135
00:09:09,966 --> 00:09:13,970
and so we conceived of something that was a first of its kind

136
00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:15,972
and when I first proposed it to people they said,

137
00:09:15,972 --> 00:09:18,975
“Well, that’s dangerous to do something that’s never been done before

138
00:09:18,975 --> 00:09:20,977
because you don’t have the precedents.”

139
00:09:20,977 --> 00:09:22,979
But we felt it was the only way that we could really

140
00:09:22,979 --> 00:09:25,481
create something that could stand the test of time.

141
00:09:25,481 --> 00:09:27,984
So you were then thrust into a position of getting acceptance.

142
00:09:27,984 --> 00:09:31,988
Exactly. So we basically went through a Green Paper

143
00:09:31,988 --> 00:09:33,990
and a White Paper process, as you know.

144
00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:38,953
But in a way, equally as important was... I set out around the world

145
00:09:38,953 --> 00:09:44,959
talking to different governments and different associations and stakeholders,

146
00:09:44,959 --> 00:09:50,965
corporate groups, trade associations, that had an interest in Internet commerce and so on,

147
00:09:50,965 --> 00:09:54,969
and basically tried to persuade them of this kind of structure,

148
00:09:54,969 --> 00:09:59,974
an organization that would be apolitical, made up of technical people,

149
00:09:59,974 --> 00:10:01,976
but stakeholder-based so everybody would have a say.

150
00:10:01,976 --> 00:10:05,980
Governments wouldn’t run it but they would have an advisory role and importantly,

151
00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:09,984
they would recognize it, and that you could put that together

152
00:10:09,984 --> 00:10:16,949
in a way that could move faster than a global U.N. body but still have structure to it

153
00:10:16,949 --> 00:10:22,955
and, importantly, enough resources. We had to make sure of getting money to it

154
00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:24,957
so it could defend lawsuits and so on, and enough research

155
00:10:24,957 --> 00:10:28,961
and infrastructure to build the stakeholder model, defend lawsuits, and so on,

156
00:10:28,961 --> 00:10:31,964
and be recognized by governments. So that was the task.

157
00:10:31,964 --> 00:10:35,968
Let me ask you this, though. It’s very unusual – the whole concept of ICANN –

158
00:10:35,968 --> 00:10:39,972
the bottom-up philosophy of policy being formed

159
00:10:39,972 --> 00:10:42,975
from the bottom and working its way up, were very unique.

160
00:10:42,975 --> 00:10:43,976
Yes.

161
00:10:43,976 --> 00:10:46,979
How did you come up with that? Why that system?

162
00:10:46,979 --> 00:10:51,984
Well, it seemed to fit the Internet. It seemed to fit what the Internet was.

163
00:10:51,984 --> 00:10:54,987
To some extent, I grew up in the United States in the late 1960s early 1970s,

164
00:10:54,987 --> 00:10:59,992
on college in that period, when there was a lot of emphasis

165
00:10:59,992 --> 00:11:02,995
on student movements that were democratic and so on,

166
00:11:02,995 --> 00:11:04,497
and I was involved in some of them.

167
00:11:04,497 --> 00:11:06,999
And it struck me that with something like the Internet

168
00:11:06,999 --> 00:11:11,003
where you want to preserve the kind of creative chaos of the Internet,

169
00:11:11,003 --> 00:11:17,009
that that kind of model could work, and in fact, it was the only thing that could probably work.

170
00:11:17,009 --> 00:11:19,970
And so even though when I first proposed it to people

171
00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:22,973
in the Cabinet and the U.S. and elsewhere, they thought it was crazy,

172
00:11:22,973 --> 00:11:24,975
that you could never get something like that to work.

173
00:11:24,975 --> 00:11:28,979
You need something that’s more top-down, buttoned-down, organized, they would say.

174
00:11:28,979 --> 00:11:31,982
And I would say, “The last thing the Internet needs is bureaucracy,

175
00:11:31,982 --> 00:11:36,987
and it’s going to be much better if it’s stakeholder based and bottom-up rather than top-down.”

176
00:11:36,987 --> 00:11:41,992
Even though there’ll be lots of meetings and lots of debates and everything else,

177
00:11:41,992 --> 00:11:45,996
people will be bought into it and you’ll actually wind up

178
00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:50,960
succeeding faster than if you tried to do these big, multi-government, bureaucratic processes.

179
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,962
And that, I think, turned out to be true.

180
00:11:52,962 --> 00:11:56,966
Was your model on Bill Clinton’s mind or was he into other areas?

181
00:11:56,966 --> 00:12:00,970
No. He was into other areas. I think the Internet was still a relatively new thing

182
00:12:00,970 --> 00:12:06,976
and frankly, when he asked me to put together something to say,

183
00:12:06,976 --> 00:12:09,979
“Well, what can I work on in my second term?”

184
00:12:09,979 --> 00:12:11,981
There was a list of things that the Cabinet came up with,

185
00:12:11,981 --> 00:12:15,985
all of which we put aside. They were more conventional.

186
00:12:15,985 --> 00:12:17,987
And when I came back to the meeting and said,

187
00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:21,991
“What I want to do is put a framework in place to let the Internet take off,”

188
00:12:21,991 --> 00:12:26,954
I think a lot of the Cabinet people – who sometimes can be turf oriented –

189
00:12:26,954 --> 00:12:29,957
they were looking at this guy sitting in the White House, what’s he going to do?

190
00:12:29,957 --> 00:12:31,959
When I said that, they sort of I think breathed a sigh of relief said,

191
00:12:31,959 --> 00:12:35,963
“The Internet. What the hell is that? I don’t care. We’ll let him go and do that.”

192
00:12:35,963 --> 00:12:38,966
And I think President Clinton saw the potential of it

193
00:12:38,966 --> 00:12:42,970
but it wasn’t where he was focused.

194
00:12:42,970 --> 00:12:46,974
How about the Hill, Ira? What was the reaction on the Hill, if any?

195
00:12:46,974 --> 00:12:49,977
Sp, in the beginning, we weren’t up on the Hill

196
00:12:49,977 --> 00:12:52,980
although we got delegations coming to us.

197
00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:56,984
Once we started to develop policy, we managed actually to develop

198
00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:59,945
bipartisan coalitions, for example, on the four major Bills

199
00:12:59,945 --> 00:13:02,948
that we did on digital signatures, Internet text,

200
00:13:02,948 --> 00:13:04,950
freedom, copyright protection, and so on.

201
00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:07,953
I had Republican and Democratic sponsors in both,

202
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:13,959
and in a period in 1997-1998 when we were in the middle of the whole impeachment

203
00:13:13,959 --> 00:13:17,963
and Lewinsky thing and very little was moving in the Congress,

204
00:13:17,963 --> 00:13:21,967
all of our Bills passed with bipartisan majorities up around 70 votes,

205
00:13:21,967 --> 00:13:25,971
and I learned my lesson doing health care reform before that,

206
00:13:25,971 --> 00:13:28,974
you needed to build bipartisan coalitions early

207
00:13:28,974 --> 00:13:33,979
and we did that and so our Bills passed.

208
00:13:33,979 --> 00:13:36,982
I remember President Clinton asked me at one point,

209
00:13:36,982 --> 00:13:39,985
“Do you want me to put the stuff you’re doing in the State of the Union speech?”

210
00:13:39,985 --> 00:13:42,988
And I said, “No, because if you put it in the State of the Union speech,

211
00:13:42,988 --> 00:13:45,991
the Republicans are going to oppose it.”

212
00:13:45,991 --> 00:13:48,994
I said, “Let’s just keep it under the radar, do this quietly,

213
00:13:48,994 --> 00:13:50,996
and work on these coalitions.”

214
00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:52,998
So you were more than content that it wasn’t out there.

215
00:13:52,998 --> 00:13:55,000
Yeah. We didn’t want it. We weren’t hiding anything

216
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,002
but we weren’t looking for publicity.

217
00:13:57,002 --> 00:13:59,004
You didn’t want to draw fire.

218
00:13:59,004 --> 00:14:02,007
Yeah, exactly. There were people, Republicans like  Spencer Abraham,

219
00:14:02,007 --> 00:14:05,970
who co-sponsored the Digital Signature, Orrin Hatch who was involved with the Copyright,

220
00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:08,973
Chris Cox on the tax piece, and so on,

221
00:14:08,973 --> 00:14:12,977
so we had bipartisan support along with obviously the Democrats.

222
00:14:12,977 --> 00:14:15,980
So we managed to get those legislation through

223
00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:17,982
and then also on the treaty negotiations.

224
00:14:17,982 --> 00:14:22,987
I spent a lot of time in Brussels and among the individual countries

225
00:14:22,987 --> 00:14:26,991
and we were worried a bit about the Brussels bureaucracy

226
00:14:26,991 --> 00:14:30,995
linking up with the Geneva bureaucracy, and one of the things we did...

227
00:14:30,995 --> 00:14:34,999
You know, the President of the EU in any given year

228
00:14:34,999 --> 00:14:37,960
can overrule the bureaucracy on something

229
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,963
and the Presidency was with Luxembourg the year we were

230
00:14:40,963 --> 00:14:44,967
trying to get the key agreement with EU and so I went to Luxembourg,

231
00:14:44,967 --> 00:14:47,970
which people in the State Department said, “What are you doing that for?”

232
00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:50,973
And I said, “Well look. They actually could overrule the bureaucracy.”

233
00:14:50,973 --> 00:14:53,976
And so I spent a couple days there, and for them the Internet was a great thing

234
00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:57,980
for their own economy, so they basically bought in and actually it turned out that

235
00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,983
when we had the final meeting on the negotiation,

236
00:15:00,983 --> 00:15:03,986
the President of Luxembourg who was the President of the EU,

237
00:15:03,986 --> 00:15:06,989
overruled the bureaucracy and agreed to the treaty.

238
00:15:06,989 --> 00:15:10,951
So we had a lot of effort to kind of go out to countries.

239
00:15:10,951 --> 00:15:14,955
I went to France where they had the Minitel.

240
00:15:14,955 --> 00:15:17,958
And there was a lot of resistance in France to the Minitel

241
00:15:17,958 --> 00:15:21,962
and I purposely, the first day I was there, I did an interview with Le Monde

242
00:15:21,962 --> 00:15:25,966
at the airport before I went to see the French government

243
00:15:25,966 --> 00:15:31,972
and I said, “Look, in 5 or 10 years there’s going to be over a billion people on the Internet.

244
00:15:31,972 --> 00:15:35,976
If 40 million Frenchmen are missing, nobody’s going to notice and you’re going to wind up behind.”

245
00:15:35,976 --> 00:15:38,979
So that got quoted and obviously they weren’t very happy when they met with me

246
00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:42,983
but it had its impact and I think they realized that they couldn’t

247
00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,945
go with their own if the Internet was going to take off globally

248
00:15:45,945 --> 00:15:49,949
and so they basically eventually gave up the Minitel for the Internet.

249
00:15:49,949 --> 00:15:55,955
Let me ask you this, Ira. Back then, back in 1998, was there any idea,

250
00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:59,959
did you conceive that the Internet would end up being what it is today?

251
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:05,965
It’s interesting because we put out a paper called “The Emerging Digital Economy”

252
00:16:05,965 --> 00:16:10,970
and it projected that what we called the Internet economy

253
00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:13,973
could grow at 10 times the rate of the regular economy.

254
00:16:13,973 --> 00:16:18,978
And the day after we put it out as a publication of the U.S. government,

255
00:16:18,978 --> 00:16:23,983
the Internet bubble began. Anybody who is under 30 that knew how to use a computer

256
00:16:23,983 --> 00:16:25,985
could raise a million dollars to start a company.

257
00:16:25,985 --> 00:16:29,989
And the Internet grew at 300% or 400% a year then it collapsed,

258
00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:34,994
but if you look at the trend line over 20 years, it grew at about 10 times the rate of the regular economy

259
00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:38,998
– about 35% a year – and so we did see that could happen.

260
00:16:38,998 --> 00:16:41,000
But I remember I used to say, for example,

261
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,003
“There could be a billion people on the Internet in 10 years,”

262
00:16:44,003 --> 00:16:47,006
and people would laugh and say, “You’re a big thinker. You’re crazy.”

263
00:16:47,006 --> 00:16:49,008
Actually I was conservative. It was actually more than that

264
00:16:49,008 --> 00:16:51,969
by the time... and we used to talk about how much commerce there could be

265
00:16:51,969 --> 00:16:55,973
on the Internet if we set it up right and we underestimated

266
00:16:55,973 --> 00:16:57,975
if anything, even though people at the time thought we were being

267
00:16:57,975 --> 00:16:59,977
grandiose and we were overestimating.

268
00:16:59,977 --> 00:17:04,982
So yes, I think we saw the potential. We saw the potential for certainly economically,

269
00:17:04,982 --> 00:17:06,984
if we could get electronic commerce moving,

270
00:17:06,984 --> 00:17:11,989
but also we saw the political and democratizing influence

271
00:17:11,989 --> 00:17:13,991
that the Internet could have and also that it could be a force

272
00:17:13,991 --> 00:17:15,993
for international cooperation.

273
00:17:15,993 --> 00:17:20,998
Did you get pushback in those early days over this idea

274
00:17:20,998 --> 00:17:24,001
of having a non-governmental entity

275
00:17:24,001 --> 00:17:26,962
take over the DNS or manage the DNS?

276
00:17:26,962 --> 00:17:30,966
Sure. Absolutely. Sure. There were people within the Administration opposing it.

277
00:17:30,966 --> 00:17:33,969
The Japanese government initially didn’t like it.

278
00:17:33,969 --> 00:17:37,973
The EU didn’t like it. And certainly members of Congress didn’t like it.

279
00:17:37,973 --> 00:17:39,975
What about within the Administration itself?

280
00:17:39,975 --> 00:17:44,980
Yeah, there were people in the Administration who thought that

281
00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:49,985
– I think some of them even said, “This is a hippy-like thing you’re trying to do here.”

282
00:17:49,985 --> 00:17:54,990
“It’s not proper governance,” and so on and so forth.

283
00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:56,992
And I just kept coming back at them and saying,

284
00:17:56,992 --> 00:17:59,953
“Look, you don’t understand the Internet.

285
00:17:59,953 --> 00:18:03,957
The Internet by its nature is a rebellious entity.

286
00:18:03,957 --> 00:18:06,960
It finds its root around any attempt to control it,

287
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,966
and its real power is that it mobilizes a vast number of people

288
00:18:12,966 --> 00:18:17,971
to do things which then can be adopted in a horizontal way.

289
00:18:17,971 --> 00:18:20,974
It’s not something that has to get approvals all up the chain

290
00:18:20,974 --> 00:18:23,977
and regulation is the worst thing you can do.

291
00:18:23,977 --> 00:18:27,981
What you need is an orderly process. You need an orderly framework,

292
00:18:27,981 --> 00:18:29,983
a legal framework, but the worst thing you could do

293
00:18:29,983 --> 00:18:32,945
is take away its democratizing strength.”

294
00:18:32,945 --> 00:18:36,949
So I prevailed in the arguments and I think

295
00:18:36,949 --> 00:18:38,951
– and there were others with me, it wasn’t just me –

296
00:18:38,951 --> 00:18:41,954
but we prevailed in the Administration and then eventually

297
00:18:41,954 --> 00:18:44,957
convinced other governments that this was the way to go.

298
00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:48,961
Let me follow up on that. So in 1998 – I believe it was 1998 –

299
00:18:48,961 --> 00:18:54,967
prior to ICANN, the meeting that you had in Reston where the White Paper was under discussion.

300
00:18:54,967 --> 00:18:58,971
I’ve heard it characterized, “Ira Magaziner basically,

301
00:18:58,971 --> 00:19:01,974
the White Paper was there and he walked away basically saying,

302
00:19:01,974 --> 00:19:06,979
‘You guys work it out.’” Is that an oversimplification of what occurred in that meeting?

303
00:19:06,979 --> 00:19:14,987
A little bit. I went away but I kept a close watch

304
00:19:14,987 --> 00:19:20,993
and made sure that we get worked out, and I think again,

305
00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:25,998
if I had tried to impose from my office in the White House

306
00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:30,002
exactly what was going to happen, that would have been antithetical

307
00:19:30,002 --> 00:19:32,004
to exactly what I was saying should happen, right?

308
00:19:32,004 --> 00:19:37,009
I’m curious. Did that ever happen? So after... ICANN’s formed, right?

309
00:19:37,009 --> 00:19:38,969
So ICANN’s there and functional.

310
00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:40,971
Did you ever have to hold back and say,

311
00:19:40,971 --> 00:19:45,976
was there ever an attempt by anybody, any of the

312
00:19:45,976 --> 00:19:51,982
Executive Cabinet departments or the Hill or anyone else to try and get involved?

313
00:19:51,982 --> 00:19:57,988
Yeah, but what I had done is, we had two events at the White House

314
00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:00,991
where we announced the Internet policy

315
00:20:00,991 --> 00:20:05,996
and we had bipartisan representation there

316
00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:08,999
even during the impeachment, and enough stakeholders there

317
00:20:08,999 --> 00:20:14,963
so that they were part of it, including I had the Secretary of the Treasury come,

318
00:20:14,963 --> 00:20:18,967
I had Secretary of Commerce come, I had the others come that were relevant,

319
00:20:18,967 --> 00:20:22,971
and so that everybody was bought into it...

320
00:20:22,971 --> 00:20:23,972
So the inclusivity was the buffer.

321
00:20:23,972 --> 00:20:25,974
Yeah, and the President was there and so on and so forth,

322
00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:29,978
and then we had the leaders in Congress who had participated on both sides of the aisle.

323
00:20:29,978 --> 00:20:33,982
So they were all there kind of blessing the approach twice,

324
00:20:33,982 --> 00:20:39,988
and so the opposition, they didn’t really have anywhere to go politically.

325
00:20:39,988 --> 00:20:43,992
So it sounds like you were pretty confident that people were going to buy into the model.

326
00:20:43,992 --> 00:20:46,954
It doesn’t sound like you had much doubt that the model would take off.

327
00:20:46,954 --> 00:20:51,959
I wasn’t sure in the beginning. I think by then I felt like we could sell it,

328
00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:56,964
but in the beginning no, I wasn’t confident but I think I believed

329
00:20:56,964 --> 00:21:02,970
it was the right approach, and there were a lot of battles that took place

330
00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:05,973
in my office with different interest groups.

331
00:21:05,973 --> 00:21:08,976
There were hundreds and hundreds of interest groups, as you can imagine,

332
00:21:08,976 --> 00:21:10,978
they all had their own thing and they all had something...

333
00:21:10,978 --> 00:21:15,983
Do you think history validated your faith in the approach?

334
00:21:15,983 --> 00:21:18,944
It’s always hard to tell what the counterfactual is. I think so and I’ll tell you why.

335
00:21:18,944 --> 00:21:23,949
If you look at all of the growth of the Internet that’s taken place,

336
00:21:23,949 --> 00:21:29,955
not just the number of users but the number of languages, Wi-Fi, mobile, everything,

337
00:21:29,955 --> 00:21:32,958
you never read a story about the Internet breaking down technically

338
00:21:32,958 --> 00:21:34,960
and not being able to handle it, right?

339
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,964
And unlike the 53 lawsuits paralyzing things,

340
00:21:38,964 --> 00:21:41,967
you don’t see that happening now.

341
00:21:41,967 --> 00:21:44,970
You don’t see people holding back on their investments

342
00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:46,972
because they don’t have faith in the security of the Internet

343
00:21:46,972 --> 00:21:49,975
or the legal sound basis of the Internet.

344
00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:53,979
So I think you've had something which has grown at amazing speed.

345
00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:58,984
Any democratic process – and ICANN is one of them – is messy.

346
00:21:58,984 --> 00:22:01,987
That’s what they are, it's messy.

347
00:22:01,987 --> 00:22:06,992
So ICANN has had its bumps along the way and it’s had its frictions

348
00:22:06,992 --> 00:22:09,995
and it’s had its fights and its everything else, but that’s democracy.

349
00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:16,001
But on balance, it’s like the dog that didn’t bark in the old Sherlock Holmes.

350
00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,003
The Internet has worked. It’s scaled up,

351
00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:21,006
it’s done everything you’d want it to do technically,

352
00:22:21,006 --> 00:22:24,968
it’s not broken down in lawsuits or political disputes that have paralyzed it,

353
00:22:24,968 --> 00:22:29,973
and it’s handled tremendous technological innovation all along the way at a rapid speed.

354
00:22:29,973 --> 00:22:32,976
Now, would that have happened if we never did what we did?

355
00:22:32,976 --> 00:22:37,981
You never know. The important thing is, it did happen

356
00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:42,986
and so the Internet is what it is today. So at the very least we didn’t screw it up.

357
00:22:42,986 --> 00:22:48,992
Let me ask you this. What do you think, either during your time

358
00:22:48,992 --> 00:22:52,996
when you were involved with ICANN or after that period,

359
00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:57,000
what do you think was the greatest risk to ICANN?

360
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:04,966
I think the greatest risk all along has probably been the risk

361
00:23:04,966 --> 00:23:09,971
that governments would come in and try to take control

362
00:23:09,971 --> 00:23:12,974
in a way that was beyond what was appropriate,

363
00:23:12,974 --> 00:23:16,978
and I think the other great risk is that

364
00:23:16,978 --> 00:23:19,981
– and I’ve said this to ICANN over the years –

365
00:23:19,981 --> 00:23:29,991
is that ICANN itself would become too much of a powerful bureaucracy itself.

366
00:23:29,991 --> 00:23:33,954
In other words, that it would accumulate too much money and too much power and so on,

367
00:23:33,954 --> 00:23:38,959
so that it kind of, you know, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," right?

368
00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:41,962
This is interesting. So, expand on that a bit.

369
00:23:41,962 --> 00:23:44,965
So, your concern was that it would become its own bureaucracy.

370
00:23:44,965 --> 00:23:47,968
Yeah, its own bureaucracy and its own power center.

371
00:23:47,968 --> 00:23:53,974
In other words, it was set up to be democratic

372
00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:57,978
and to some extent a bit messy in its processes,

373
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:01,982
and if somebody came in especially as...

374
00:24:01,982 --> 00:24:05,944
You know, one of the benefits, as you know, is that the price of domain names

375
00:24:05,944 --> 00:24:08,947
came down significantly with competition which was part of what we wanted to achieve.

376
00:24:08,947 --> 00:24:12,951
But we financed ICANN independently because we didn’t want it

377
00:24:12,951 --> 00:24:15,954
to depend on governments and so on by taking a little cut out of the domain names.

378
00:24:15,954 --> 00:24:21,960
Now, as the Internet exploded, ICANN got a lot of money as a result

379
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,964
and one of the things I’ve said to them over the years is,

380
00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:31,970
“You’ve got to be careful here. You don’t want to be staying in first class hotels

381
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:34,973
and flying your own planes around the world and doing all this kind of stuff

382
00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:38,977
because people will start to resent it, and secondly,

383
00:24:38,977 --> 00:24:42,981
you don’t want to get so full of yourself that you start feeling like

384
00:24:42,981 --> 00:24:46,985
you can dictate things and you don’t have to listen to the grass roots and you don’t have to…

385
00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:49,988
You’ve got to keep the sort of creative flow here

386
00:24:49,988 --> 00:24:52,991
and not make it bureaucratic.

387
00:24:52,991 --> 00:24:55,994
And as you become bigger, there’ll be a risk of that.”

388
00:24:55,994 --> 00:24:58,997
So I think that was a risk, and I think ICANN has sometimes

389
00:24:58,997 --> 00:25:04,002
gotten closer to that than I’d like but it’s usually pulled back

390
00:25:04,002 --> 00:25:07,005
mainly because the community has forced it to pull back.

391
00:25:07,005 --> 00:25:12,969
During this most recent debate around the decoupling from the U.S. government

392
00:25:12,969 --> 00:25:17,974
there was some serious tensions among different parts of the community

393
00:25:17,974 --> 00:25:20,977
and the ICANN Board and so on and I tried to help out where I could.

394
00:25:20,977 --> 00:25:24,981
They asked me to help out. But with all that,

395
00:25:24,981 --> 00:25:29,986
– and there have been governments who’ve tried to come in, including the U.S. government

396
00:25:29,986 --> 00:25:32,989
and do more than they should – but with all that, it’s basically worked, I think.

397
00:25:32,989 --> 00:25:34,991
It’s, as I say, a bit messy but it’s worked.

398
00:25:34,991 --> 00:25:37,994
And the proof is in the result.

399
00:25:37,994 --> 00:25:41,998
I mean, the Internet functions and functions tremendously.

400
00:25:41,998 --> 00:25:45,961
Is it problematic for you that it seems like almost every year

401
00:25:45,961 --> 00:25:48,964
ICANN was called up to the Hill on either the House side

402
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:51,967
or the Senate side to go to hearings?

403
00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:53,969
No. I think it’s American democracy.

404
00:25:53,969 --> 00:25:56,972
I think it’s appropriate if, you know, we have a Congressional branch

405
00:25:56,972 --> 00:26:00,976
it’s appropriate for them to make inquiries and so on,

406
00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:03,979
and I think ICANN should hold itself accountable.

407
00:26:03,979 --> 00:26:07,983
But does it make ICANN look subservient to the U.S. government when viewed from the outside?

408
00:26:07,983 --> 00:26:10,986
It did before but remember in the original White Paper

409
00:26:10,986 --> 00:26:15,991
we proposed that the U.S. government give up the contract back in

410
00:26:15,991 --> 00:26:17,993
– I forget what it was, 2000 or something –

411
00:26:17,993 --> 00:26:22,956
we proposed it within a couple of years, and had the U.S. election gone

412
00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:24,958
– I was going to say a different way...

413
00:26:24,958 --> 00:26:26,960
Which election?

414
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,964
2000. I’m hesitating because it’s still unclear

415
00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:32,966
how that election actually went.

416
00:26:32,966 --> 00:26:38,972
But in any event, in 2000 when the Administration shifted, if it had not shifted,

417
00:26:38,972 --> 00:26:40,974
if Al Gore had been elected President,

418
00:26:40,974 --> 00:26:44,978
I think what happened recently would have happened in 2000

419
00:26:44,978 --> 00:26:47,981
or thereabouts during those years

420
00:26:47,981 --> 00:26:50,984
and that’s what we’d originally planned.

421
00:26:50,984 --> 00:26:54,946
So this is interesting. What I’m hearing you tell me is the transition...

422
00:26:54,946 --> 00:26:59,951
Because what you hear, and you heard the same verbiage that I did

423
00:26:59,951 --> 00:27:01,953
surrounding the IANA Stewardship Transition,

424
00:27:01,953 --> 00:27:04,956
you kept hearing about maturation, “ICANN has matured.”

425
00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:09,961
What you seem to be saying is it was mature enough back then

426
00:27:09,961 --> 00:27:11,963
that could have occurred and the reason it didn’t happen earlier

427
00:27:11,963 --> 00:27:12,964
was political, not...

428
00:27:12,964 --> 00:27:16,968
I think so. I think it could have been. I don’t know what the right year is,

429
00:27:16,968 --> 00:27:19,971
but I think after three to four years it probably could have matured enough.

430
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,974
I think... But in any event, it’s fine.

431
00:27:22,974 --> 00:27:29,981
It happened and I think it’s important that it happened.

432
00:27:29,981 --> 00:27:31,983
And that’s why, you know, when I left the White House

433
00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:36,988
people reach out to me to say, “Would you get involved at ICANN?”

434
00:27:36,988 --> 00:27:38,990
And I thought it was inappropriate actually

435
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:42,994
because I had helped set up a lot of these things related to the Internet

436
00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:46,998
and I also had offers to get involved with Internet companies and so on

437
00:27:46,998 --> 00:27:49,000
because I knew the industry quite well obviously.

438
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,003
And even though I could have made a lot of money doing that,

439
00:27:52,003 --> 00:27:55,006
I thought it was inappropriate because when you’ve helped set something up

440
00:27:55,006 --> 00:27:57,008
and you’ve been in charge of helping regulate it and so on,

441
00:27:57,008 --> 00:27:59,969
while in Washington, I don’t think you should profit on that

442
00:27:59,969 --> 00:28:02,972
by going into it after you leave.

443
00:28:02,972 --> 00:28:05,975
So I stayed away from ICANN, other than, you know,

444
00:28:05,975 --> 00:28:09,979
coming to an occasional celebration or if somebody wanted my advice.

445
00:28:09,979 --> 00:28:10,980
You know what you sound like? Forgive the oversimplification,

446
00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:13,983
but you almost sound like a father

447
00:28:13,983 --> 00:28:16,986
whose child has grown and you’re stepping back.

448
00:28:16,986 --> 00:28:21,991
Well I thought it was appropriate to step back for the reasons I said.

449
00:28:21,991 --> 00:28:26,996
And I think, when I was asked by the community or by the ICANN Board

450
00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:31,000
to be of help on something, I did but only if I was asked.

451
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,963
Two and a half year period between when Strickling announced

452
00:28:34,963 --> 00:28:38,967
the desire to make the transition happen and when it actually happened.

453
00:28:38,967 --> 00:28:43,972
In that period, did you ever think, “It’s not going to fly”?

454
00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:46,975
Yes. I actually thought it might not fly

455
00:28:46,975 --> 00:28:52,981
and I think the Administration was serious about it

456
00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:57,986
and would make it happen on their side, but I thought there was a definite possibility

457
00:28:57,986 --> 00:29:04,993
that the Congress would stall it and as a result of interest group pressure and money,

458
00:29:04,993 --> 00:29:08,955
and in Washington the best way to kill something is to delay it.

459
00:29:08,955 --> 00:29:10,957
You know, what you say is not, “I’m against it,”

460
00:29:10,957 --> 00:29:12,959
but you say, “I’ve got to study it more. I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to do that.”

461
00:29:12,959 --> 00:29:18,965
And if it had been delayed too long into the election process or into now,

462
00:29:18,965 --> 00:29:21,968
the new Administration, I’m not sure that it would have happened.

463
00:29:21,968 --> 00:29:24,971
That’s right because the Trump campaign actually issued

464
00:29:24,971 --> 00:29:27,974
a press release saying they opposed the transition.

465
00:29:27,974 --> 00:29:29,976
That’s right. And so when they asked me to get involved

466
00:29:29,976 --> 00:29:35,982
and I agreed to be on a Technical Advisory Committee and help do some,

467
00:29:35,982 --> 00:29:38,943
I want to call it negotiations, among different parts of the community

468
00:29:38,943 --> 00:29:46,951
and the Board and so on, I was happy to do it and in a way

469
00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:50,955
I was sort of a non-threatening voice from the past, kind of a neutral party,

470
00:29:50,955 --> 00:29:57,962
who could come in and be there for a while to kind of help with discussions

471
00:29:57,962 --> 00:30:00,965
but nobody saw me as any kind of threat or anything,

472
00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:03,968
and so hopefully I was helpful to them in doing it.

473
00:30:03,968 --> 00:30:06,971
But the main thing I kept emphasizing to them is, “You’ve got to get this done quickly.

474
00:30:06,971 --> 00:30:10,975
You can’t let the time run out on you. You can’t let the clock run out.”

475
00:30:10,975 --> 00:30:14,979
And I think they came very close to losing it.

476
00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:16,981
What were your interactions like with Postel?

477
00:30:16,981 --> 00:30:19,984
Well I can give you one story.

478
00:30:19,984 --> 00:30:23,988
Initially he was very suspicious of me because I was the government.

479
00:30:23,988 --> 00:30:26,991
And I don’t know if you knew Jon, but he was a guy with a big scruffy beard

480
00:30:26,991 --> 00:30:31,996
and sandals and, you know, the government came to town,

481
00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:37,001
but we got friendly and I invited him to the White House

482
00:30:37,001 --> 00:30:41,005
and because of the way he looked it took me about four hours to get him past security,

483
00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:47,971
but I took him to lunch in the Senior White House lunch room

484
00:30:47,971 --> 00:30:52,976
and you had all these kind of very self-important Cabinet, Office Secretaries

485
00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:54,978
and others having lunch and I was sitting there with Postel

486
00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:57,981
and they were all kind of looking over at this guy in sandals and a robe.

487
00:30:57,981 --> 00:31:01,985
And I thought to myself, you know, a hundred years from now,

488
00:31:01,985 --> 00:31:03,987
nobody’s going to remember any of these Cabinet Secretaries

489
00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:06,990
but they are going to remember Jon Postel as one of the founders of the Internet.

490
00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:09,993
Did Postel himself think that?

491
00:31:09,993 --> 00:31:13,997
If he did, he never said it to me. I thought he was a very kind of humble guy

492
00:31:13,997 --> 00:31:18,960
and I was very honored when they invited me to come speak at his funeral

493
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,966
and I got a proclamation from the President to give to his family.

494
00:31:24,966 --> 00:31:31,973
And I think I remember saying that although it’s tragic that he’s passed,

495
00:31:31,973 --> 00:31:36,978
it’s actually fitting that he’s one of the first in the Internet founded generation

496
00:31:36,978 --> 00:31:40,982
to go to Heaven so now he can help keep the addresses for everybody when they come.

497
00:31:40,982 --> 00:31:45,987
Let me ask you this. I heard one story, and I want you to elaborate on it

498
00:31:45,987 --> 00:31:47,989
and tell me how much of it is fiction and how much of it is truth,

499
00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:50,992
that at one point Jon had reassigned one of the roots

500
00:31:50,992 --> 00:31:55,955
and that you had threatened to send Marshals in to deal with this.

501
00:31:55,955 --> 00:31:59,959
Actually you’re conflating two different stories and I’ll tell you each one.

502
00:31:59,959 --> 00:32:04,964
I did get a call – I was actually in Davos at one of those Davos conferences –

503
00:32:04,964 --> 00:32:10,970
and I got a call from let’s just say National Security at the White House

504
00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:15,975
saying that they had observed that the Internet was being rerouted

505
00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:19,979
and they were concerned about it and they weren’t sure who was doing it or what.

506
00:32:19,979 --> 00:32:22,982
And I thought to myself, there’s actually only one person

507
00:32:22,982 --> 00:32:25,944
who could probably do that successfully.

508
00:32:25,944 --> 00:32:32,951
So I made a call to Jon and then he was sort of evasive.

509
00:32:32,951 --> 00:32:36,955
It was about midnight in Switzerland so it was early afternoon in California.

510
00:32:36,955 --> 00:32:42,961
But it became clear to me that he had actually done this on purpose

511
00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:45,964
because I think he was protesting some things

512
00:32:45,964 --> 00:32:48,967
that we might be thinking of doing.

513
00:32:48,967 --> 00:32:51,970
And so I called the President of the USC and said,

514
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:54,973
“Look, we’re going to come down on you like a ton of bricks if you don’t get this in order.”

515
00:32:54,973 --> 00:32:57,976
He called Jon and so on and we got it sorted out.

516
00:32:57,976 --> 00:32:59,978
I had alerted the White House.

517
00:32:59,978 --> 00:33:04,983
The President was in a White House dinner or something,

518
00:33:04,983 --> 00:33:08,987
and said, “Look, I don’t think we’re going to have to do anything here but just in case –”

519
00:33:08,987 --> 00:33:10,989
So this went up to the level of the President.

520
00:33:10,989 --> 00:33:15,994
Yeah, well the President's Chief of Staff, yeah. But then Jon said,

521
00:33:15,994 --> 00:33:18,997
“Okay, I’ll put it back to normal,” and he did.

522
00:33:18,997 --> 00:33:20,999
The other case I thought you were getting at is that

523
00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:24,002
we did have an issue at Network Solutions at one point

524
00:33:24,002 --> 00:33:32,010
where they were balking at actually turning over some of the control

525
00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:37,974
that was needed to ICANN, and in that case I did make a threat

526
00:33:37,974 --> 00:33:40,977
that we were going to send Federal Marshalls to seize the A Root Server

527
00:33:40,977 --> 00:33:46,983
and that worked pretty well to get them to agree.

528
00:33:46,983 --> 00:33:47,984
It did the trick.

529
00:33:47,984 --> 00:33:48,985
It did the trick, yeah.

530
00:33:48,985 --> 00:33:53,990
So you raised an interesting thing when you were talking about Postel.

531
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:55,992
Because of the timeframe that this occurred

532
00:33:55,992 --> 00:33:56,993
there was a lot of distrust in government.

533
00:33:56,993 --> 00:33:57,994
Absolutely.

534
00:33:57,994 --> 00:33:59,996
We’re talking the post-Watergate era.

535
00:33:59,996 --> 00:34:01,998
Especially in the Internet community.

536
00:34:01,998 --> 00:34:05,960
It’s a very kind of a laissez-faire community.

537
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,964
And that was at the root, based on what you’ve previously told us,

538
00:34:09,964 --> 00:34:14,969
those feelings sound like they were very much at the root

539
00:34:14,969 --> 00:34:18,973
– forgive the pun – or in the foundation of ICANN.

540
00:34:18,973 --> 00:34:26,981
I think ICANN was... One of the reasons why it was a model that could work

541
00:34:26,981 --> 00:34:31,986
is that a lot of the parts of the community at the Internet Society

542
00:34:31,986 --> 00:34:39,952
and elsewhere that were, let’s say, more anarchistic in their tendencies,

543
00:34:39,952 --> 00:34:44,957
saw this as preferable to having the government take over something.

544
00:34:44,957 --> 00:34:49,962
Although at one point, some people from ISOC had gone to the ITU

545
00:34:49,962 --> 00:34:54,967
to try to forge an alliance with them of some sort where ISOC...

546
00:34:54,967 --> 00:34:58,971
And that wasn’t going to go anywhere and had to kind of beat that back.

547
00:34:58,971 --> 00:35:02,975
But yeah, I think ICANN did…

548
00:35:02,975 --> 00:35:07,980
It was a tent in which we could gather all the forces in the sense that

549
00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:12,944
a lot of the more anti-government people in the Internet community could say,

550
00:35:12,944 --> 00:35:15,947
“Okay, well this is not the government taking over.”

551
00:35:15,947 --> 00:35:19,951
A lot of the governments could say, “Well, okay. We get this

552
00:35:19,951 --> 00:35:23,955
but we’ll have a seat at the table. We’ll be there at the Advisory Board

553
00:35:23,955 --> 00:35:25,957
and we’ll see what’s going on and if we don’t like it,

554
00:35:25,957 --> 00:35:26,958
we can always do something different.”

555
00:35:26,958 --> 00:35:29,961
And so it was a tent in which we could gather together

556
00:35:29,961 --> 00:35:32,964
what were a very disparate group of forces, you know,

557
00:35:32,964 --> 00:35:34,465
because then you have the corporate communities,

558
00:35:34,465 --> 00:35:36,968
and the corporate communities were very divided, too.

559
00:35:36,968 --> 00:35:40,972
The Internet gaming people were an entirely different affair

560
00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:44,976
than the high tech community that was developing technology at the time

561
00:35:44,976 --> 00:35:46,978
– the Netscapes and the Microsofts and so on –

562
00:35:46,978 --> 00:35:49,981
and they were very different than the big, commercial enterprises

563
00:35:49,981 --> 00:35:52,984
that were concerned about trademark protection on the Internet and so on.

564
00:35:52,984 --> 00:35:55,987
So you had, even within the business community,

565
00:35:55,987 --> 00:35:59,991
you had dozens of interest group factions that you had to kind of weave together.

566
00:35:59,991 --> 00:36:03,995
And there was a set of organizations in Washington

567
00:36:03,995 --> 00:36:07,999
– lobbying trade groups, dozens of them –

568
00:36:07,999 --> 00:36:12,003
that we had to kind of keep on board with everything we were doing.

569
00:36:12,003 --> 00:36:17,008
And remember, it wasn’t just ICANN. We were doing the Tax Freedom Act,

570
00:36:17,008 --> 00:36:19,969
we were doing the digital signature, we were doing the privacy,

571
00:36:19,969 --> 00:36:21,971
we were doing encryption which was a whole separate thing

572
00:36:21,971 --> 00:36:25,975
because that brought in the whole NSA and the Security community

573
00:36:25,975 --> 00:36:26,976
and how to handle encryption.

574
00:36:26,976 --> 00:36:31,981
And so we had to balance all these organizations’ concerns

575
00:36:31,981 --> 00:36:34,984
on all these issues and we managed in a two-year period

576
00:36:34,984 --> 00:36:37,987
to get them all done and get the framework put in place.

577
00:36:37,987 --> 00:36:44,994
So it was a kind of exciting time and after I had kind of

578
00:36:44,994 --> 00:36:48,998
dredged through a failure in trying to put health care reform in place

579
00:36:48,998 --> 00:36:52,960
at the White House, it was kind of exhilarating to be able to take this,

580
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,964
knowing that this was going to be equally as important,

581
00:36:56,964 --> 00:37:00,968
in many ways equally as complex and global but it worked.

582
00:37:00,968 --> 00:37:03,971
You know, when I asked Vint Cerf, I said,

583
00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:07,975
“How would you characterize historically ICANN’s relationship with the U.S. government?”

584
00:37:07,975 --> 00:37:14,982
What he said to me was, “I think it was difficult, problematic,

585
00:37:14,982 --> 00:37:18,986
and not necessarily supportive.” How would you react to that?

586
00:37:18,986 --> 00:37:22,990
I think if he’s talking about the government writ large, I think that’s correct.

587
00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:26,953
I don’t know if he was talking specifically about what we did,

588
00:37:26,953 --> 00:37:29,956
but Vint and I worked together pretty well I think

589
00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:33,960
and I was very supportive when he became Head of ICANN.

590
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,962
So elaborate. How was it problematic?

591
00:37:35,962 --> 00:37:40,967
How was the relationship between the USG and ICANN problematic?

592
00:37:40,967 --> 00:37:42,969
I’m sorry, you're talking about afterwards?

593
00:37:42,969 --> 00:37:43,970
Yeah.

594
00:37:43,970 --> 00:37:45,972
I’m sorry. I was thinking of the time when I was...

595
00:37:45,972 --> 00:37:48,975
No, after its formation. After 1998, ICANN is formed.

596
00:37:48,975 --> 00:37:50,977
His characterization was –

597
00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:52,979
Yes, I’m sorry. So after it was formed, yeah.

598
00:37:52,979 --> 00:37:55,982
I was thinking of the period before we came into doing what we were doing,

599
00:37:55,982 --> 00:37:58,943
there were Bills going through the Congress to censor the Internet,

600
00:37:58,943 --> 00:38:01,946
to set standards for the Internet, you know, etc.

601
00:38:01,946 --> 00:38:03,948
We beat all that back. But I see what you’re saying.

602
00:38:03,948 --> 00:38:07,952
After ICANN was formed and I was out of it, I had left the White House,

603
00:38:07,952 --> 00:38:09,954
then you had the Bush White House.

604
00:38:09,954 --> 00:38:14,959
I think you had a number of people there that were more traditional

605
00:38:14,959 --> 00:38:19,964
in their view of government control of things and so I think ICANN did have

606
00:38:19,964 --> 00:38:26,971
a lot of difficulty trying to keep itself alive and existing during that period

607
00:38:26,971 --> 00:38:31,976
when there was that more controlling and security-oriented

608
00:38:31,976 --> 00:38:33,978
group of people in the White House.

609
00:38:33,978 --> 00:38:39,984
Vint would be more able to tell you about that because

610
00:38:39,984 --> 00:38:42,987
I was gone and I wasn’t involved then, but I know that was true, yeah.

611
00:38:42,987 --> 00:38:46,991
Let me ask you this, Ira. You had mentioned your concerns about

612
00:38:46,991 --> 00:38:50,995
the affluence, if you will, of ICANN as its revenues increase

613
00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:54,999
and the potential dangers there. In the early stages,

614
00:38:54,999 --> 00:38:59,003
the White Paper didn’t lay out a funding model. It left that to the community.

615
00:38:59,003 --> 00:39:03,007
Actually, we had in mind putting a small surcharge.

616
00:39:03,007 --> 00:39:05,009
Was that in the White Paper?

617
00:39:05,009 --> 00:39:06,969
I can’t recall if it was in the White Paper but I know it was

618
00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:09,972
what we had planned. I have it on our planning documents.

619
00:39:09,972 --> 00:39:13,976
I see. But was it for the community itself to figure out how that would work?

620
00:39:13,976 --> 00:39:17,980
Well the details of it, yes. But what we said is,

621
00:39:17,980 --> 00:39:19,982
“Look, you need your own revenue source.

622
00:39:19,982 --> 00:39:22,985
If you’re dependent upon governments for revenue, you’re not going to get anywhere,

623
00:39:22,985 --> 00:39:26,989
and you can’t be out with a tin cup collecting in Times Square.

624
00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:29,992
So you need a sustainable source of revenue.”

625
00:39:29,992 --> 00:39:33,996
And I remember the memo I wrote saying,

626
00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:40,961
“If the Internet takes off the way we all think it can and if...”

627
00:39:40,961 --> 00:39:42,963
– I think, I can’t remember, it was like $50 or $75

628
00:39:42,963 --> 00:39:44,965
just to register a domain name then –

629
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:47,968
I said, “If you bring that cost down and price down, which we expect you will,

630
00:39:47,968 --> 00:39:50,971
and then you take 50 cents off the top of each one,

631
00:39:50,971 --> 00:39:52,973
that could give you a sustainable revenue model.

632
00:39:52,973 --> 00:39:55,976
Another alternative is you could do something with commerce.

633
00:39:55,976 --> 00:39:58,979
It’s a very, very, small, almost miniscule charge.”

634
00:39:58,979 --> 00:40:02,983
But I think we always envisioned that the domain names may be the best way to do it

635
00:40:02,983 --> 00:40:05,986
and we discussed it at that time. We didn’t impose it.

636
00:40:05,986 --> 00:40:09,990
It wasn’t up to us to impose it. It was up to ICANN to develop it

637
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:11,992
but that was in the planning documents.

638
00:40:11,992 --> 00:40:16,956
Ira, in closing, is there anything that the U.S. government – the Executive branch –

639
00:40:16,956 --> 00:40:21,961
should have done differently in either the formation or nurturing of ICANN?

640
00:40:21,961 --> 00:40:27,967
Well look, I think in the formation, I mean, obviously I was involved.

641
00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:31,971
I think we did the best we could. Could we have done things better? Maybe, but it worked.

642
00:40:31,971 --> 00:40:36,976
When you look at the four separate Bills through Congress,

643
00:40:36,976 --> 00:40:40,980
three separate treaties, the formation of ICANN, all done in two years,

644
00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:44,984
that’s pretty good by government speed.

645
00:40:44,984 --> 00:40:48,946
And the framework that we put in place in all those areas

646
00:40:48,946 --> 00:40:53,951
have stood the test of time. So I think I feel pretty good about what we were able to accomplish.

647
00:40:53,951 --> 00:40:58,956
I think Scott Cook once said in a speech he made that

648
00:40:58,956 --> 00:41:02,960
I made the world safe for the Internet essentially.

649
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,962
But I think... So, I feel pretty good about that.

650
00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:08,966
I also think that the Obama Administration,

651
00:41:08,966 --> 00:41:11,969
Larry Strickling and so on did an excellent job

652
00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:15,973
in bringing in the final step here of internationalizing ICANN.

653
00:41:15,973 --> 00:41:19,977
I think he had just the right touch of putting it out there,

654
00:41:19,977 --> 00:41:23,981
getting support within the Administration for it, relating to the community,

655
00:41:23,981 --> 00:41:27,985
letting them develop it, and working with them but sort of nudging a little bit here and there.

656
00:41:27,985 --> 00:41:33,991
I think he was masterful in doing it and I credit him as I do Steve Crocker

657
00:41:33,991 --> 00:41:37,995
and others that were involved with having it happen.

658
00:41:37,995 --> 00:41:41,999
Let me ask you a question that I posed to Steve Crocker.

659
00:41:41,999 --> 00:41:47,004
Was the Stewardship Transition a result of a bunch of things

660
00:41:47,004 --> 00:41:50,007
coming together at the right time? You had Strickling out of NTIA,

661
00:41:50,007 --> 00:41:55,971
Fadi Chehadé, ICANN CEO, and them interacting against

662
00:41:55,971 --> 00:41:58,974
the backdrop of the Snowden revelations.

663
00:41:58,974 --> 00:42:04,980
How important was this nexus of those three things or was it not?

664
00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:07,983
You know, I can’t say. I wasn’t close enough to it.

665
00:42:07,983 --> 00:42:13,989
But I think, certainly I think Fadi and Strickling and Steve and the others

666
00:42:13,989 --> 00:42:18,994
did a very good job with this and I think there are a lot of, you know, the committees

667
00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:23,999
that I interacted with, the people that worked on those committees,

668
00:42:23,999 --> 00:42:29,964
I think did a very good job and so I think there was a confluence of events.

669
00:42:29,964 --> 00:42:32,967
I think having the Obama Administration there

670
00:42:32,967 --> 00:42:41,976
with a sophisticated understanding of the Internet and of the need for it to be global

671
00:42:41,976 --> 00:42:45,980
in order for it to flourish, I think was very important

672
00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:49,984
so I credit the White House for what it did

673
00:42:49,984 --> 00:42:53,988
in supporting Strickling and the Commerce Secretary and so on.

674
00:42:53,988 --> 00:42:59,952
So I think it happened, it worked, and that’s the ultimate proof.

675
00:42:59,952 --> 00:43:03,956
Exactly who did what to who, I don’t know. But it happened and it worked

676
00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:07,960
and the timing was right. And I’m glad it happened.

677
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,965
I think the Internet is poised now to continue to transform the world

678
00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:17,970
in very positive ways and I’m happy that I had some small role to play

679
00:43:17,970 --> 00:43:19,972
in it back in the late 1990s.

680
00:43:19,972 --> 00:43:23,976
With that, I’ll say thank you very much. Ira Magaziner, appreciate you talking to us.

681
00:43:23,976 --> 00:43:25,978
My pleasure.