Template talk:Counties of Ireland

Former counties of Northern Ireland

Calling it "Former counties of Northern Ireland" is misleading, isn't it? They are former counties of the Republic of Ireland which became Northern Ireland. They were counties in Northern Ireland until 2015. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

You said it yourself: "they were counties in Northern Ireland until 2015" (this is still very recent for most users that are still more used to locate countries than the newer districts that have also all changed radically), so they are "former counties of Northern Ireland" (and not counties of the Republic of Ireland)... I don't see what is misleading, the "former" adjective says it all. verdy_p (talk) 22:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Footnotes

@Verdy p: What are these footnotes for? There is no mention of them in the template documentation and no one is going to repeat the explanations on each page. If they are for different time period, we should just use different templates rather than some odd footnoting that has no explanation. Ricky81682 (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

They just link entities to each other, these are not "footnotes", they are self-contained in the list displayed in the box and not elsewhere on the page. This helps understanding how they are contained or splitted (independantlyof time when they were used). The link is that they share the same numeric note (adding sentences here would complicate the layout, I tried it, that was not evident). verdy_p (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Note that I'm unifying these counties across all of Ireland, not all of them are properly subcategorized. These small local notes help making sure we don't forget anything. They may disappear later if you don't like it -or could appear only when "all=1" is set), once the global structure is in place. But there are local notes in other navboxes, it's not obvious for many users (including natives) how these are or were organized (and this knowledge is needed also for categorizing historic topics and not mix them). verdy_p (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Verdy p I have no idea what you mean. You have County of Cork and Cork 'linked' have cities and counties placed in the same template. Why put all this in one template? This version was straightfoward enough. We don't have Template:States of the United States include a boatload of cities and all prior territories and every thing we can dump into one template. It is completely a mess and makes zero sense. I don't even know what is the point of having former counties of Ireland that are now in Northern Ireland put into this same template. Also learn to use edit summaries. You edit all over the place with never a single word about what you are doing. Ricky81682 (talk) 21:27, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Officially the City of Cork is administratively separated now from County Cork (the city was included in the county in the past), and the identical case for Galway. The same is true for the City of Dublin, separated from the 3 other newer counties that were forming the former County Dublin...

Taking US as an example is also complex below the level of states; there are various kinds of counties or cities. This just looks simple if you look at the state level, but even then there's a separation for its territories. Such complexity occurs in many countries where we already have categories for historic entities (and this was already the case for Ireland, but not correctly unified, so there were half-fed categories, and ambiguities about were to place files and subcategorize them).

Now if we look at UK, there are tricky containment rules (and various types of counties): the navbox is there to help see the whole and not forget items in the limbos. verdy_p (talk) 21:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Verdy p So? They are still a part of the counties. This isn't administrative units. Category:Counties of the Republic of Ireland doesn't include those cities for a reason. Do you want the cities categories to include this template? Why? Ricky81682 (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't want to include all cities, just 3 cities (may be 2 others but apparently the sources indicate that they are still joined in their county with a single council for the city and the county, e.g. Limerick, but this requires further checks, as Wikipedia articles are not always clear about if they refer to the traditional county or the new one which exists only on the paper) that are now separate from their homonymous county, and now not part of any other county. verdy_p (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Note also that I am not merging the associated parent categories: counties remain with counties, cities with cities, former subdivisions with former subdivisions. The navbox is a helper for lateral navigation for entities that are at the same level, but not necessarily all the same type (and the text in the navbox unambiguously distinguishes these types). At one time in recent history these types have changed, so that they may have been at the same level, while other did still did not exist. Medias in Commons refer to enttiies at different times that need their categories if possible. Beside that, each county will have its own subcategories for its own precise divisions: medias shuold be categorized at the thinest level available, without duplication and without forgetting another parent. Note that there may be a few other adjustments (notably if there are disambiguation or alternate names found, that the navbox should collect and help categorize properly). verdy_p (talk) 22:06, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Note also that the doc alerady says that the tempalte should reflect the state as of 2016, and the separation of these 3 cities was already legally effective at that time since 2014. There may have been new developments but I did not find references for them. Wikiepdia articles about them were mostly written before these changes, and still do not reflect them everywhere. So I've not invented, just used what is already existing and already used. In UK the term "county" is even more ambiguous than in Ireland, it is only clear in Northern Ireland because they have no longer legal tender and will remain "as is" since they were replaced by "districts" (which have then be themselves reformed). I ahve also not mixed counties with the former provinces of Ireland. verdy_p (talk) 22:20, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Verdy p Why these three cities? Why not Kilkenny the city rather than the county? You don't seem have a particular reason other than you want to do it. This isn't a generic "populated places in Ireland template" but it is supposed to 'be counties of Ireland. Ricky81682 (talk) 19:44, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Because the city of Cork (for example) had a newer special status where it fits outside of the homonymous county and plays the same role as a county, at the same level. This was not the case in the past, so it's sorted specially and differentiated in the list. Most cities don't have this status today, only a few (not Kilkenny). Note that in en:ISO 3166-2:IE these special newer statuses have still not been reflected, so ISO 3166-2 still encodes "traditional" counties. comprizing their (former) main city. Another modern reference (valid today) is en:Local government in the Republic of Ireland. verdy_p (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

For reference, look at this section: [1] and how they are joining (or not) within the same county assemblee. For 3 of them this is sure, for others this requires further checks (some have been abolished, then reappeared recently); and in all cases this does not concern all "cities" (even if formerly some were chartered as "towns"), so there's a very limited number of cities (at least Dublin, Cork, and Galway). verdy_p (talk) 21:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Another remark: the situation of "counties" in the Republic of Ireland is still transitional (the same is true for counties in England which are a real "mess" and frequent causes of confusions), but there's no assertable and referenceable indication for how long it will persist. In Northern Ireland the transition was completed by transfering all powers from former "traditional" counties to districts (the situation is also simpler in Wales and Scotland that have completed their own regional reforms). In the Irish Republic, this transition has been complicated by the negociations following the "brexit" of UK and the peace agreements between the two main governments of the island to terminate the conflict in Northern Ireland (and also by how the COVID19 pandemia had to be managed). What was envisioned, transfering powers of counties of the Republic to either regions or municipalities was postponed (including for regional elections: the regional reform is incomplete, and regions are still not the primary subdivisions of the Republic; the Irish law was painfully adapted, by allowing municipalities to keep their former designation as towns or cities or by allowing them to merge with their county. A couple of traditional counties were also merged, half-way in their transition into newer regions. If and when this regional reform becomes effective, and all Irish counties become "traditional", there will no longer remain some confusion (and maybe then, ISO 3166-2:IE will be updated to reflect that). But now, we can no longer live with only the delimitation of "traditional counties", that are no longer all recognized as "local governments". But the primary subdivisions of Ireland effective today should be effective now in Commons because there are specific contents related to them that cannot be easily categorized without it. Other useful legal references:

• https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/national_elections/local_elections.html
• https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/1/section/15/enacted/en/html#sec15

As a conclusion, managing the transition when there are adminsitrative reforms is not as simple as we may wish in Commons. I make no judgement, but what is shown for the 3 separate cities reflects the current and effective legal state of what is existing today (since already more than 8 years), and is not based on speculations of what may happen in the future (probably not effective before 2024 with the next planned regional elections, if the postponed regional reform is finally enacted in 2023). Yes that's difficult! verdy_p (talk) 22:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)