Template talk:Book/2012

Suggested new parameters

This template is great, but it is missing a couple of parameters that are commonly found in book metadata:

• "Page number" (or perhaps "sequence number"): the number of the page if a book is uploaded page-wise. For example File:The Vanity of Arts and Sciences (Agrippa, 1694) - 0006.jpg is page 6.
• "Pages": the total number of pages.
• "Format": the physical characteristics of the book.
• "Library code": a place to put any relevant library codes for the book, eg. Dewey, LoCC, Worldcat, etc.

Cheers, Inductiveload (talk) 00:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with all of those, especially the last one, the template is big but it's an important data repository. We may also want to split "date" out into date of original publication and date of this edition, that's often important and I usually find myself cluttering the date field with text to explain which date is which. We also should put some text with the WS link, it wouldn't be obvious to someone who wasn't familiar with all the projects and just came across a work on commons via a google search. I see there is a link marker next to it here but not on works themselves, what's up with that.--User:Doug^{(talk • contribs)} 00:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

In general I am hesitant to add new fields an not to clutter the template too much. Almost each book has something that do not fit perfectly into current structure, but it is not possible to add them all. Also other_field parameter can be always used to add new fields to the end of the template.

• About "page" and "pages": Some Book templates use undocumented (oops!) parameter "Pageoverview" to provide links to all the pages in the book so "page" and "pages" parameters are not needed. Other book templates allow individual files to specify page number and display them in the same field. For example your template can have "Pageoverview=/123" where 123 is the number of pages. I do not think we need different place for that info.
• About "Format": Can you provide some examples? I am not sure if I understand.
• About "Library code": I think it is a good idea - I will look into it.
• About splitting dates: I am hesitant to add yet another rarely used field.
• About WS link: I agree it might not be as intuitive as one would wish, but I can not think of a better solution. If you can think of a better way please try it in a {{Book/sandbox}}. One of the issues of multilingual project is that words are often replaced with icons and symbols (if possible) since it is hard to predict the layout in other languages.

--Jarekt (talk) 04:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

• Pages: I meant a parameter to show which page this one is in the sequence. I don't see it as quite the same thing as a list off all the other pages. I can't think of a more vital piece of metadata for a file that is one of several hundred pages since the rest of the metadata is shared with every other page. I agree "pages" is quite similar in function.
• Format: A lot of libraries add data about the physical book, for example "67pp 8vo" or "Paperback, 155mm * 367mm * 25mm". I think it would be good to keep the physical data separate from the subject data. If that is not clear I will go and find an example. Cheers, Inductiveload (talk) 06:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

• Pages: I added documentation and examples for "Pageoverwiew" parameter. Please use that parameter.
• Format: I think "Description" parameter is sufficient for that purpose. However, if more people think that parameter is need and we get consensus, it is fine with me to add it.
• "Library code": I guess we can use en:ISBN {for newer books), en:LCCN, may be even en:ASIN. We could create a template similar to Template:Authority control for such links and call it from {{Book}} --Jarekt (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done I created Template:Book authority control and call it from {{Book}}. See Template:Ambulance 464 for an example. --Jarekt (talk) 15:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, we have use of it :) I see than call to the Book authority control is done inside the book template with {{#if:{{{ISBN|}}}{{{LCCN|}}}{{{OCLC|}}}, it'll better if the template itself check for the parameter and expand to nothing if no one is provided, implementation of template:Book will be less efficient because we'll need to call twice the template, first to check for empty result, then to get the expansion if needed but actually the way it works means if more parameter are allowed to Book authority control, all template calling it will need an update. Obviously the choice depends if you prefer easier maintainance or better efficiency (but does mediawiki cache a template call with exactly the same parameters called twice in the same page?) . Phe (talk) 15:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The {{#if:{{{ISBN|}}}{{{LCCN|}}}{{{OCLC|}}} part is for checking if one needs to add an extra row to the Book template or not. I think we will need it no matter what. However, I might misunderstood you. The easiest way of suggesting template improvements (and a most of templates can use improvements) is to try them in {{Book/sandbox}} and test them in {{Book/testcases}} that way others can more easily see what you mean. --Jarekt (talk) 02:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

[1], only a proof of concept because when implementing it, I understood it can't work. What I tried is to test if the expansion of the template is empty or not (which means the called template must expand to nothing if all parameters are empty), to avoid modifying the book template when more parameters are allowed to the called template. But anyway, adding new authorities to Template:Book authority control will need an update to the Book template to pass the new params defeating what I was trying to do... Phe (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

. We could have a "dimensions" parameter instead of format. It is already internationalized. And I think that "size=in 8° is all right--Zolo (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"Should be short"

In the description of the parameter "title", it says: "title of the book. Should be short". That's funny to me - surely it should be no shorter, nor longer, than the actual title of the book? What is meant here? That subtitle should not be included? It would be nice with a more clear description. Thanks! /Skagedal (talk) 16:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Subtitle has a separate "|subtitle=" parameter. I think the recommendation mostly applies to old book (maybe pre 19th century). They sometimes have long titles without any clear end (example in French). But I am not sure it is such a good idea to shorten it. Easier to clip it afterwards that to look for the complete title again. --Zolo (talk) 16:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I think I wrote it after seeing people using this field to add description. But it does sound kind of silly. I will rephrase it, and please feel free to do the same if you notice that documentation can be improved. --Jarekt (talk) 17:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Much better, thanks! Of course I'd edit myself, but I wasn't sure what was intended here. /Skagedal (talk) 20:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Machine-readable data

When drafting Help:Machine-readable data, I noticed this (major) template had it completely wrong: most of fields have id="fileinfotpl_src" . This need to be fixed.

Suggestion:

Author

fileinfotpl_author

Editor

fileinfotpl_book_editor

Translator

fileinfotpl_book_translator

Illustrator

fileinfotpl_book_illustrator

Title

fileinfotpl_book_title

Subtitle

fileinfotpl_book_subtitle

Series title

fileinfotpl_book_series-title

Authority control

fileinfotpl_book_authority

Publisher

fileinfotpl_book_publisher

Printer

fileinfotpl_book_printer

Year of publication

reuse fileinfotpl_date ?

Place of publication

fileinfotpl_book_place-of-publication

Language

fileinfotpl_book_language

Description

Reused fileinfotpl_desc ?

Thoughts? Jean-Fred (talk) 17:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The id="fileinfotpl_src" in all the codes look like cut and paste error. I did not check the history, but it is likely it is mine. I am fine with the proposed change, but do you know what are those fields good for, and how they can be used. May be we should have some information template for labeling templates that add such tags. --Jarekt (talk) 19:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to follow up on this. As I understand it, these fields are nice to have when you are trying to retrieve the metadata through simple DOM manipulation / XPath search. The advantage over knowing that the author is after the |author = field is that it is template agnostic (it might have been set by {{Book}} or {{Artwork}}, it does not matter, as long as the HTML tags are the same.

(Indeed, I tried some time ago to write some converter Artwork to OAIPMH, and went for templates reading, where HTML manipulation might have been more interesting).

Jean-Fred (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Authority control in Macedonian (mk)

{{editprotected}} Could you please add the following Macedonian translation of "Authority control" under the relevant heading in the code?

mk|Нормативна контрола

Cheers. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 09:39, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done I switched to {{Authority control tag}} --Jarekt (talk) 11:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)