Talk:Ecclesiastical heraldry

Basilica

Basilica major, minor. It's all very unclear. I could use some help with this.

This basilica uses the design that we have called major

this uses the minor design

A dutch basilica has this design:

in this case, keys and umbrellono are not an exterior ornament. So there is no rule for the shield. Mangouste35 (talk) 14:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

But, the four basilica major are in Rome! Adelbrecht (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

There are clear rules. Maybe a few basilicas do not respect them... but rules are very clear. You read french language, so go and see references on this page : Héraldique ecclésiastique.

Mangouste35 (talk) 12:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, it's from a book of 1891. The Ecclestiastical Heraldy has changed a lot after Vatican II, perhaps there were changes in this too? Or perhaps the papal keys have also been used as a Heraldic "award" given by popes. But I have indeed found some other sources confirming that they cannot use papal keys. Adelbrecht (talk) 12:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The only change after Vatican II about heraldry concernes Cardinal and Bishops coats-of-arms.

Ut sive sollicitudine instruction tells : «#28. It is granted to Cardinals and to Bishops to use a coat-of-arms. But the design of this coat-of-arms is to be delineated according to the norm of heraldry, and ought to be simple and clear. The images of the pastoral staff and miter are abolished from coats-of-arms», «Sive Patribus Cardinalibus, sive Episcopis conceditur, ut generis insigne adhibere possint. Huius vero insignis aspectus ad normam artis exarandorum insignium delineandus erit, idemque simplex atque perspicuus sit oportet. Ab huiusmodi autem insigni sive baculi pastorali sive infulae effigies tollantur.»

If you read other references, you can notice Mgr Heim's book, (admittedly, on 1949), but the author has been drawing popes' coats-of-arms until John-Paul IInd's ones, and I know most of his more recent publications. Nowhere we can see changes of other rules.

As you wrote, maybe a few basilcas could have obtained keys and tiara by a special privilege. But it's not the common rule.Mangouste35 (talk) 14:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

In the case of the Dutch arms, I guess it is a misinterpretation? They added the umbraculum to the shield itself by accident. Adelbrecht (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps... Mangouste35 (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any official refernce saying that there are differences in the coat of arms of major and minor basilicas. The document ruling, Domus ecclesiae clearly says that minor basilicas have the keys: «Signum pontificium, id est "claves decussatae", adhiberi poterit in vexillis, in supellectile, in sigillo Basilicae». --Gambo7 (talk) 19:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

A "sigillum" is a seal ! not a coat-of-arms... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e35:2ef4:e280:d819:a7ff:a327:511a (talk • contribs) 18:42, 3 gen 2014‎ (UTC)

The seal has the coat of arms in it...

Anyway, then, is there any reference stating the difference in coats of arms between major and minor?? --Gambo7 (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2014 (UTC)