File talk:Tripolitanian Front.svg/Archive 4

Green coastal area east of Zuwara?

Both Nic Robertson of CNN and Sue Torton of Al Jazeera seem to have travelled thru and forth Tunisian border–Tripoli in the last two days. Can they do that through 'green' territory?--Paracel63 (talk) 14:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

One thought: I think I read that (Sue Torton) reached the Tunisian border, via a "small but safe detour". Is that a eufemism for a short boat trip Sabratha to Zuwara (thus avoiding this 'green' area)?--Paracel63 (talk) 14:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but you also have to consider that Ajaylat is not on the main highway: Google Maps. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know. But in this case I was wondering why the green went (and still goes) all the way to the coast. Maybe Gaddhafist control is spotty, allowing some traffic through the area. Or the map is plain wrong in this sector. Or they took a boat.--Paracel63 (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The map is wrong; Ajaylat is under NTC control per CNN, and has been since yesterday morning. Loyalists are still within artillery range of the town, though, per Al Jazeera. -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that this pocket of resistance is south of the city, or road is not seen from the city.Boniek1988 (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks, both of you. That seems plausible. Map update, someone?--Paracel63 (talk) 18:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the 'small but safe detour' would have been on the road along the coast from Zuwarah to Abu Kammash, bypassing Zaltan (which didn't fall until the next day). The map showed the coast green because there was no report of its taking, the liberation of Zawarah being reported as via internal uprising with seaborne infiltration, not a drive fromt he east, and it couldn't be assumed - documented green control of Al-Ajaylat meant they could shell the road to the point of preventing red control. I find various sources parroting unnamed rebels as claiming to have taken Al-A, but they did that once before and it proved wishful thinking. Anyone have explicit RS for this? (Please don't just cite 'CNN' or 'Al-Jazeera' - give a specific link.) Agricolae (talk) 19:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right on this. Nic Robertson tweeted (on the 27th): "Rebel leaders also say town of Al Zaltan on highway to Tunisia still in hands of G forces. Small but safe detour needed to reach border."--Paracel63 (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Just read all what Robertson tweeted (see link in Al Ajaylat section), he later said that Ajaylat (the green area east of Zuwara) and Zaltan had fallen to the FF. Meanwhile (ARD/SWR radio report from today I just heard, with a German correspondent in Tripoli who travelled yesterday to Zuwarah), the highway is absolute safe to travel, no GF near, and Zuwara shops are now full of goods from near Tunisia 193.159.187.67 12:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

He said "Rebel leaders here say also they have also taken key strategic loyalist holdout Al Ajaylat". He is not independently confirming their claim, and they made a similar claim 14 Aug that proved false. Agricolae (talk) 20:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The claim from 14.8. was not proven false, but parts of Ajaylat were retaken by GF on 25.8. GF claimed FF there (just locals, the troops weren't there before they came from Tripoli) ran away like rabbts... (AJE) 193.159.187.67 23:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Date for Tripoli

All of the sources I see are placing the fighting south of Tripoli-proper. It looks like it is time to give it a date, but what date? Agricolae (talk) 20:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Reqdalin

Apparently fighting is still ongoing in Reqdalin: AJE. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Obviously that was the last battle on a big FF cleanup campaign from 25-28.8. FF said before this will be the last battle in northwest Libya http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/rebels-group-final-battle-western-libya and obviously all villages are taken ant the campaign was successful for FF, traffic in Ras Ajdir is back to normal http://en.trend.az/regions/met/arabicr/1924843.html , so there are no reports of further battles or a GF army hiding in the unsettled desert like the map shows. Only settled and not mentioned area is the small village of El Assa in the desert. And this village might be too unimportant to mention anywhere, situated in the desert (the "seas" south of Ras Ajdir are "salt lakes", Sabkhas, also no visible water and useless for agriculture, see http://www.mapmonde.org/africa/libya/baladiyat-al-jumayl/el-assa-809767/ and change to satellite and play a bit with zoom). So where should be GF there? That is just nonsense that they exist 193.159.187.67 17:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Tarhuna/Beni Walid

Anyone know which direction the attacks on Tarhuna and Beni Walid are coming from? Kwamikagami (talk) 00:49, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

On Tarhuna from Tripoli and Beni Walid is not under attack. Also according to rebe spokesman Tarhuna switched sides like Al Khums few days ago. --EllsworthSK (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Source? --Quintucket (talk) 07:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC):

I should've googled first. --Quintucket (talk) 08:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

So, are there still loyalist attacks around the airport, or should that green arrow be removed? Kwamikagami (talk) 15:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I left it in until we hear otherwise, or there's a consensus to change it. My suspicion is that the attacks we heard about a few days ago were guerilla warfare. --Quintucket (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Msallata (2)

Since we never actually heard that Qaddafist retook the town, I've turned Msallata back to red with the original date, when I turned Tarhouna red as per above. Objections? --Quintucket (talk) 08:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much the same point I made above numerous times. I wouldn't expect any responses- I never got many. --Yalens (talk) 20:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

One minor issue though- the current version has Msallata (Qusbat) taken on 3 August. This was when the uprising began, but control of the city was first reported to be completely under revolutionary/rebel (NTC, I mean) hands on the 6th. --Yalens (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Done and done. --Quintucket (talk) 07:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

NTC/NLA forces waiting for Saturday?

If there's a lull in the fighting right now (is there a lull?), maybe that could be attributed to this? This might seem like a general ultimatum. Or is it more propaganda, as there's already been at least one ultimatum concerning Sirte?--Paracel63 (talk) 11:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems a way to explain why rebels are not advancing (they need to move supplies anyway). Also, the NATO bombing campaign is in full swing, so not exactly a "lull".195.212.29.190 19:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Another reason could be Eid ul-Fitr (30-31 August). Found a tweet (mentioned here) that "NTC seems to have allowed many of their fighters to go back to families for Eid so likely next few days will be quiet on all fronts". Just a tweet, but it seems plausible.--Paracel63 (talk) 12:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

It's definately Eid, that is also the reason for the ultimatum too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14720499 193.159.187.67 7:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Well they've extended it. I suspect that their reason for not fighting is threefold: 1. They don't want to look like the aggressors in the court of public opinion. 2. NATO's mandate is to protect civilians and this risks street-street fighting, 3. They think Qaddafi is in Bani Walid.[1]

Transpaency in south

Is that semi-transparency in the green area around Bani Walid and in the bottom border of the map intentional? I see no point in making parts of the map semi-transparent. Further, in the video above, that semi-transparency renders as a darkening of the map, which seems very pointless too. 187.77.118.222 02:30, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the leaders of Bani Walid could not side with the rebels because of loyalist forces, but they promised not to attack, and AFAIK they haven't. So they're not exactly anti-NTC. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:55, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

In 1992 Warfalla tribe tried to overthrow Gaddafi, but didn't manage to. After this was suppressed they were facing a hard repressions. Almost everyone was expelled from army, high administration etc. Many tribal liders in jail or killed, so Bani Walid would probably join revolution, but there is probably every larger troop remaining from Gaddafi's army in the west part of country.Boniek1988 (talk) 23:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciations

If you've heard how the following towns are conventionally pronounced in English, say on the news by someone who actually knows what they're talking about, could you help me out?

Zaltan, Wazen, Cabao, Ζintan, Nalut, Yafren, Sorman, Gharyan, 'Ajaylat, Sibrata, Msalata.

Thansk. Kwamikagami (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid

First claims that Bani Walid has been surrendered peacefully pop up [2] Elllit (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

In fact they claim that they have informations about uprising/surrender of Beni Walid but no confirmation. Lets wait and see, this may be very well Gaddafis PSYOP.--EllsworthSK (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I know. Also, Reuters already jumped the gun before during this conflict. I just wanted to point it out ;) Elllit (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

AJE's Sue Turton is obviously near Bani Walid and says people from Bani Walid at FF checkpoints and also FF don't see GF in the city anymore, but FF will anyway not move in the citx before tommorrow. People in the city say they don't want blodshed. http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-3-2011-1910 193.159.187.67 17:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Reuters reports that NTC fighters have established a frontline "about 20 miles from the desert town" of Bani Walid. One of their correspondent "saw considerable numbers of fighters" at a checkpoint 60km away. However, note that "there was no fighting". [3] While clearly there are no indications that Bani Walid has been taken, the red region need to be extended slightly further down the road. 122.106.51.194 02:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

"Thousands of fighters were moving toward the town from three sides Saturday, according to a senior rebel official from the area, Mahmoud Abdel-Aziz, who is also involved in the surrender talks. Some fighters had pushed to within six miles (10 kilometers) of the town, but stopped to avoid being accidentally targeted in NATO airstrikes." 99.32.186.55 06:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Bani Walid is surrounded by now. What's almost strange is that there is no development at all in the northwest and in the loyalist pocket near Gharyan... —Nightstallion (?) 08:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

There's no development because they're not important. The loyalists may have melted away, they may still be there, the rebels may even have cleaned them out (per some Twitter claims), but it's not worth reporting, compared to developments in Bani Walid and Sirte. We still don't know what's happening in the Fezzan either, which is driving me nuts. --Quintucket (talk) 10:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Anyways, there is for sure no frontline there, and that would be the criteria for painting an area green. A few dorks with G pictures on the wall is no reason, also its a problem that the "green" area in Northwest is absolutely unsettled, just one small village at the border. AJE spoke with the local commander of the north column to Bani Walid, and he said three columns from east, west and north are within 10 km to Bani Walid. The west column is obviously from Gharyan, and has before very probably cleaned up that GF pocket. 193.159.187.67 10:30, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's all quite plausible and likely, but the lack of sources is really enervating; also for Msallata, which obviously has to have been freed by now, and for Tarhouna, were we haven't got a real date citation, and for Al Qatrun, which I doubt is still in loyalist control if Murzuq has fallen. —Nightstallion (?) 10:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Definately, especially for the south. But in the Tripoli Area I have no doubt Bani Walid is the last pocket of GF, there the map is sort of a relic of old sources and not as precise as human logic, and Bani Walid is tightly under siege with FF from three sides and even the main road to Sebha under FF control (but not all side roads, there is obviously some with no control at all in unsettled areas). 193.159.187.67 10:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

How do we know FF is in control of the main road to Sebha/Sabha? Currently, I can find no map corroborating this. There were tweets that the road from Sebha/Sabha to the north was taken by FF, but that was within talks of the Fezzan attack on/uprising in Sebha/Sabha, I believe.--Paracel63 (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, this is no "RS" (even if almost no RS are existing outside Tripoli or Bani Walid), but many are obviously interested, so there is the complete story of the northwest I heard via phone from there (I was 3 times in Zwara myself, I have still several friends, and that is the reason for my high interest in events there). South of Reqdaleen and Al Jamil is two major government baracks, I know not the names though. They were both conquered on 29 August (the reason shoots were heard that day near Reqdaleen?) and this is the end of any battles in NW Libya and there is no GF there anymore. Most of GF surrendered, but some after Ras Aidir attack escaped by boats. The airbase south of Zwara is competely deserted for months and obviously severely damaged by NATO air raids. The FF in this campaign are now in Bani Walid and only a small contigent of local FF is on the border, upholds the security and checks the highway for escaping higher G officials. All people are back at work like nothing happened, also police men, besides some who joined FF. In general, the local people there are very western orientated and the support for the new government is very big. And the phone lines to there working again :) 193.159.187.67 10:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! It would be nice if we could get some confirmation of that. NATO strikes late July, w Tunisia closing the border, then nothing. Kwamikagami (talk) 11:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh by the way, I asked for Asabiah (the small pocket on the map), but he even didn't know that such a village near Garyan does exist... 193.159.187.67 11:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Ultimatum extended also to Sabha/Sebha, Jufra and Bani Walid?

This Al Jazeera news video says the ultimatum extension was not only for Sirte? Is that so? I've heard conflicting things about Bani Walid in the last few days.--Paracel63 (talk) 11:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Ref. to myself and others: The video sourced at [4] mentions the general extension of deadline made by NTC's leaders, where local negotiatior pointed out that Bani Walid was a "special case". Are we here seeing a limited level of command of their forces by NTC? Plus, remember the FF forces from Misrata said they would not follow the command of Benghazi, following the killing of Abdul Fatah Younis.--Paracel63 (talk) 12:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

It's also possible that the FFs are planning to use Bani Walid as an example to the other Gaddafist holdouts: "If you don't surrender, watch how fast we will overwhelm you." ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

See here as well. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I think BBC is a RS, and they clearly state "Bani Walid is one of four towns and cities - the others are Jufra, Sabha and Col Gaddafi's birthplace in Sirte - still controlled by Gaddafi forces." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14784962 That would mean, all of other Libya is "red" now! Maybe news don't travel well in deserts, but for the settled areas in Tripolitania this is very clear. Just the extend of these pockets are not defined. Also this fits to the NATO air raids (Jufrah is the area around Hun and Waddan, both oasis towns are 20 km away from each other) 193.159.187.67 12:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

From NATO reports, it is evident that Hun and Waddan are still Gaddafist: airstrikes are still being conducted there. Additionally, it is much more likely that these are the main bastions of support (i.e. concentrations of soldiers and fiercely loyal elements of the populace) and the only ones for which we have reliable information. As for Fezzan, I highly doubt it is controlled by NTC forces. It has always been rather pro-G in sentiment, but it is so isolated and sparsely-populated that I doubt that it matters all that much strategically to the NTC and NATO. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 12:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is a source confirming this: "Even if both [Sirte and Sabha] fall to the insurgents soon, vast expanses of Libya's interior desert will remain outside rebel control, areas where tribes either pro-Gaddafi or historically hostile to central government have long held sway." ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 12:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree you there, I never have been there away from the coastal area, but even the Libyans say in Fezzan is a different kind of people. They call themselves mediterrean, but in the desert the people are tribal people who doesn't care for Tripolis much and only the oil made them settle down. Maybe Sebha might be a bit different, but the rest of the Fezzan won't be GF or FF besides temporary alliances, and live their own lives.

Very different is the coastal area and Nafusa, and even low military experience tells to clean up pockets of other forces (here GF) first before starting bigger expeditions like Bani Walid now. Both the delay between Tripoli and now Bani Walid operation and also the fact that pockets under siege are bindin a lot of people and resources tells this was already done in this missing 1 1/2 weeks and Bani Walid / Sirte, possibly still linked until yesterday will be the last operation in Tripolitania. After that, the coastal area is completely "liberated".

Also i have the suspicion that Gaddafi and Seif are allowed to escape to Sebha by NTC, because this will ensure the unity of the FF. When Gaddafi would be captured, new battles might start and it would be also way harder to recruit FF's. 193.159.187.67 12:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The Assabah Patch

This little green patch in the Nafusa mountains was there for weeks, and the Gaddafi Forces in Assabah probably gave up, as there is no information about them. They probably surrendered or fled to Bani Walid. (They were totally surrendered, and the G forces trapped there probably did not last very long in a village like Assabah)

This was remains of the GF after the fall of Gharyan. According (no RS) Twitter Sources, Asabiah was conquered by FF on 27. or 28.8., with no mention whether the GF surrendered or fled to Bani Walid. But cut off from all supplies and under siege, the GF there can't stand there longer than a few days. And no RS tells they are still there and don't mention them in G held towns, so it's for sure time to get rid of this anachronism. 193.159.187.67 14:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Absence of evidence != evidence of absence. We made similar assumptions about Msallata awile back, only to realize that Qaddafi in fact had not recaptured it. --Quintucket (talk) 16:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Basically you are right there, but there are some differences. In Msallata, only the inner city joined the revolution, though the highway from Tarhuna to Al Khums was free for GF. So it was strategically not important for them. Rebels there had no heavy weapons. And there was nearby a heavy fight for Zliten. And when Zliten fell, the Nafusa FF broke also towards Tripoli, so there was almost no time and capacity to care for some town rebels with guns who aren't equipped like the NTC forces who ran T55 tanks and artillery. In Asabiah on the other hand, the GF were positioned at the crossroads from Gharyan to both Yafren and Mizda, a very important place. Without taking that spot before, a fall of Mizda like visible on Maps here was very probably not possible. The GF had as far as I recall 18 tanks and 13 rocket launchers, so they would be a real threat. 4Adams map showed clashes in the northeast, towards Gharyan. And that arsenal there was a real threat for Gharyan and would have bound stronger NTC forces, almost as much as needed to conquer the positions there. And no doubt, NTC had way more forces than GF. But I would agree, there is no hurry, Asabiah is no important scene while all the world looks to the very probably decisive battles in the north in Bani Walid and Sirte instead of looking at a village with few 100 inhabitants. 193.159.187.67 16:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

By the way, this is a twitter description from Msallata from 9.8.: "He said that rocket launchers were in Al-Akeratt – a suburb in Msalata – and Al-Amamrah They were on standby in case the freedom fighters made any new move, and he would not hesitate to bomb the city. At present the exit roads from the city are controlled by Al-Daman and his private militia – who intermittedly drive through the cities shooting – but do not really control the city – as many neighbourhoods are armed and capable of resisting any attempt to restore the dead hand of the regimes day to day rule."

I wouldn't see a FF front there, just some citizens daring sort of guerilla warefare. So basically it was right to paint that area green. Until real NTC units reached them. 193.159.187.67 18:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

According to the Al Jazeera live blog today, http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/Libya:

"AFP - At least 12 people were killed and many more wounded when two groups of fighters opposed to Muammar Gaddafi turned on each other in Libya's west, two officials told the AFP news agency on Sunday. The fighting, which has its roots in ancient rivalries and pitted combatants from the towns of Gharyan and Kikla on the one side and from Asabah on the other, broke out on Saturday, according to the chief of the Gharyan council and confirmed by the head of the military council of Asabah. The towns are on the eastern edge of the Nafusa mountains and were important centres of resistance to Gaddafi's forces in months of fighting to oust the strongman."

Therefore Asabah is under NTC control, and the green patch can finally be removed from the map. 70.51.33.121 15:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Yep, you're absolutely right. Please remove the green splotches in the NW and Assabah. —Nightstallion (?) 16:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid (2)

Airport near Bani Walid taken by the rebells- --93.142.128.206 13:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

That report says Namwa Airport is 20km E of Bani Walid and taken today. We have it 100km E of BW and taken weeks ago. And what about Bani Walid Airport, if they're now cut off? Have we mislabeled things, or mislocated them? Kwamikagami (talk) 16:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The general problem is that there is almost no areas of control like the map shows, but the very most of Libya there is towns with water supply and just few roads linking them. So that airport, not situated on a main street, was unimportant and FF fought GF along the road from Misrata to Sirte. You have to imagine, many miles of lonely roads in the desert, just often huge tubes for water supply on one side, that's 99,9% of Libya. 193.159.187.67 20:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't address the point: the BBC says it's 100km away, we say it's 20km away. One of us is wrong. Kwamikagami (talk) 22:55, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Here it is! ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Al Jazerra says that rebels are within 5km of Bani Walid. 122.106.51.194 13:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

A good satellite picture which shows why FF are fast in N and W, but the hills in E and the pockets between that hills in S are excellent for a defender with good artillery http://news.orf.at/static/images/site/news/20110935/libyen_gaddafi_bani_walid_screenshot_google_maps.2092806.jpg 93.133.101.243 18:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Any news about the airport after Gadaffi loyalist re-taken it? Is it again in NTC hands? Japinderum (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Necessary changes

At the very least, the green arrow at the top left should be removed, there haven't been any attacks there in days. I also would find it better if we removed the green from Assabah and the northwest and left it white; we may not have confirmation that it's liberated, but it's unlikely that it's under loyalist control. —Nightstallion (?) 16:40, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, exactly that is what I would do too! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.4.194.199 (talk • contribs) 02:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Or, instead of making it white, which looks blotchy and pasty, how about we make it sort of a mix between red and green, like in the desert below the Uqba Ben Nafi airport? 70.187.185.194 00:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is a link of a BBC journo who was in Libya recently http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14831141 . I think it says all...

By the war, I don't think painting it red and green is appropriate, cause there is no sign of it being one of the last strongholds of G. It is either red or uncolored! 93.133.125.227 18:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Ajaylat, currently shaded greenish, has been in rebel hands for at least a week: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/libyan-rebels-struggle-to-win-over-pro-gaddafi-town/2011/09/08/gIQAOuM1BK_story.html

2. As much as I've liked following this map over the last months, I'm wondering if it should be retired. The only area we know for sure is not in rebel hands is Bani Walid, and it won't be green long. The Assaba pocket and NW are probably relics but can't be erased. The map is still useful in that gives the dates that cities fell, but is otherwise rather silly at this point.

~~Rotsapov

Actually, as an alternative to killing the map, maybe turn it into an animation ending in the final map (see the animation section above). I don't possess the skills to do such things, but it would be a good fate for this map and all the work Wikipedians put into it.

~~Rotsapov

Yeah, an animation would be nice, but I agree that as soon as Bani Walid falls, unless we have a source that al-'Assa or the airport are still in loyalist hands, there will no longer be any point to the map in its current form. Kwamikagami (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

There is still an airbase between Tiji and Zwarah which is in pro-G hands and there have been reports about shelling of coastal highway from pro-G artillery positions south of coast. As for Asaaba, we dont have much of a confirmation about anything regarding this village but given that we have no reports from that for month now I guess we should start thinking about re-drawing that area. Id love some report which would clarify its status but in the end its small village in mounain range that is completely under rebel control. --EllsworthSK (talk) 08:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Finally, we have confirmation that Asabah is not under G control anymore [5] although it seems that local militia switched sides but still remain distrustfull towards rest of NTC fighters. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:15, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The article says that the clashes are between TWO ANTI-GADDAFI GROUPS, so even though there are clashes, I'd paint the town red because it's not under Gaddafi's control anymore (Green:Under Gaddafi Control)--Vectrex (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Vectrex--17:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Vectrex. Nobody switched sides here; just some infighting between rebel groups. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but that means there's no pro-Qaddafi presence here. So, it should finally be coloured red. —Nightstallion (?) 17:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

And we never said it shouldn't be painted red after this confirmation. On the other hand, we do not have any confirmation that Gaddafists have been cleared from the NW, so that should remain as is. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

AJE: "Gaddafi's whereabouts remain a mystery, but his loyalists hold those two cities, the city of Sabha and other pockets in central and southern Libya." http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/09/2011915235553251868.html I think, besides the fact that nobody could survive for 3 weeks in a desert, cut off from all supplies and water, with only a by several NATO raids damaged airbase, this is now enough RS to paint all the NW of Tripolitania red. More sources we won't find about an unhabited desert! 193.159.187.67 08:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid is completely encircled according many RS sources, and that should be visible. And not that GF control the area south of BW. Here is it from Reuters: “We fought all night. We have surrounded the city from all sides with the range of 40 km (25 miles),” anti-Gaddafi field commander Absalim Gnuna told Reuters at the northern gate of Bani Walid. 193.159.187.67 10:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Region south of Zwara

Hey, does anyone has any articles or informations about pro-G presence in this region which are not month old? We know the cities on coast are under NTC control but we have no info about airbase. I dont want this to turn into another Assabah which was painted green long time after it was captured because of lack of reports and with no attacks on Zwara and coastal highway Im doubting wether there is something or not. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems glaring to me. If that region was still a hotbed of pro-Gaddafi activity, media would be reporting on it. They aren't. In fact, indications seem to be that Tripoli and its environs are basically secure. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Can someone please make it red because I think it's left over from when Gadhafi forces held the entire area. 70.187.185.194 02:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

With Zwara holding the first democratic elections for regional leaders, I guess the NW coast is probably the most peaceful area in all Libya http://feb17.info/news/live-libyan-unrest-september-17-2011-2/attachment/screen-shot-2011-09-18-at-8-11-02-am/ + many more pictures https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.170383273041755.42970.135604253186324&type=1#!/media/set/?set=a.170383273041755.42970.135604253186324&type=1 . Even if that destroyed airfield (see in several NATO reports) is still manned with some G guys and not liberated, they wouldn't get pay and there is for sure no army there, which would be the only reason to keep it green. 77.4.218.44 15:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess although it really border en:WP:OR and en:WP:NPOV. But if someone has any problem with it it can be reverted. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:11, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

All of these maps are OR and SYNTH anyway. We're just trying to make sure they're good OR. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. :) It's a shame (of world journalism as whole) that WP is becoming the reliable source we are so desperately trying to find to back it. That is ,at least as far as this war goes.94.113.101.38 17:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I would like to have a source confirming that the two military bases between Zwara and Tiji/Badr are taken by NTC. Japinderum (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

This map is useless now

An entire map showing ready doesn't really say much about the conflict, would something like the tripoli map be a good idea ? Seektrue (talk) 16:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Better yet, if an updated animation of action and advances on the entire front (like what AzaToth did about 2 months ago) could be made. Maybe both. 173.70.82.26 04:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)