File talk:Okänd kvinna kallad Anna prinsessa av Sverige - Nationalmuseum - 15094.tif

Who is the depicted young lady?

If we assume her not to be Anna (thus avoiding the necessary assumption of a post-mortem or altered painting) we have to ask

• who was born between 1605 and 1620?
• who belonged to a wealthy noble family?
• who has had a close relation to the Swedish court?
• who did live there during the 1630s when the painting had been created (likely by court painter Elbfas or his workshop)?

Of Katarina Vasa, daughter of king Karl IX, is said on sv:Katarina Karlsdotter Vasa: Paret ska ha trivts väl på Stegeborg och höll ett hov på sextio personer med hovdamer, hovmän och en officiell taffel serverad vid åtta bord efter rang: Johan Kasimir ska ha poängterat Katarinas kungliga status under tiden i Sverige och varit noga med att leva enligt furstlig standard och ceremoniell. Her daughter Kristina Magdalena, born in 1616 in Nyköping, sister of king Karl X Gustav, matches all of the conditions.

• 
  Unknown noble woman in c. 1635 aged ~20
• 
  Kristina Magdalena in c. 1660 aged ~45

Of course, not more than a possibility, but it would fit perfectly. --Achim (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the origin of the dates in your analysis? The painting is not dated on the file page, nor on the source page, nor on the authority control page? Why do you dismiss the possibility of that the picture was painted after the subject's death – it could have been commissioned by bereaved relatives, and it could be based on an earlier portrait.

The source link resolves to a page at zetcom.ch, which looks odd. It is better to rely on the museum's website, and I have found the same content at nationalmuseum.se.[1]

The title of the picture indicates that the identity of the subject has been questioned: Okänd kvinna kallad Anna prinsessa av Sverige, which Google translates as 'Unknown woman called Anna Princess of Sweden'. However, this could be the title that the picture had when the museum acquired it.

We should not allow private research to override the scholarship of a national museum. If you think they have made a mistake then please contact them and ask them to change their description. Meanwhile, the museum's page on this picture unambiguously says 'Depicted Person – Princess Anna, Swedish, born 1545, dead 1610', and our description and categorisation should reflect this. But it is ok to discuss the issue here. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Verbcatcher, you're right. I am trying to show as I said a possibility, that would fit perfectly if we assume that the image has been created during the 1630s. That decade is without doubt shown by fashion, hairstyle etc. of the lady. I'm fine with treating her to be Anna but I personally don't believe in that. The provider zetcom.ch provides services for museums. The National Museum is using them. --Achim (talk) 21:06, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Edit: Great, the museum seems to refer to a different person or they made a mistake: sv:Anna Vasa lived from 1568 to 1625, the museum says 1545 - 1610. --Achim (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Edit: Found it, they referred to sv:Anna Gustavsdotter Vasa who IMO looks completely different. --Achim (talk) 21:44, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree, we should assume that the museum is referring to Anna Gustavsdotter Vasa, who was a Swedish princess and whose dates are those given by the museum, unless Swedish naming conventions rule this out. I wouldn't worry that the faces do no look similar: the other picture is later, could have been misidentified, and portraitists often flatter their subjects. The confusion may be long-established, Wacław Piotrowski would be more likely to copy a portrait that he thought was of a Polish princess (here). Do the hairstyle and clothing of this picture support it being Anna Gustavsdotter Vasa? Verbcatcher (talk) 23:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

And Piotrowski's picture has the dates 1568–1625, so it's clear who he thought it was. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:43, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Because of clothing, hairstyle, jewelry etc. we have to assume that the painting has been made in the midst of the 1630s as well as this one (same style, same painter, same time) which depicts Kristina who became (though still being a minor) queen of Sweden (hence the shown regalia) after her father's death in 1632. I think Piotrowski didn't know it better when he created his copy in 1917, probably at this time our unknown lady has already been assumed to be Anna Vasa. --Achim (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

So you probably reject Anna Gustavsdotter Vasa as a likely subject, as she was dead in 1630 and would have been 85 had she lived that long. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2019 (UTC)