File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 3

Discussions About the Map

There are a lot of discussions about features on the map: colors, cropping, etc. I have moved them all to the archive "Discussions Of Map Features." Please look to see if your topic has been discussed before proposing a major change to the format of the map. Thanks. --175.201.133.250 04:10, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Nofilia

Revolutionaries seem to be stopped at the town of Nofilia, with some sort of military engagement brewing there, according to AJE Live Blog (11:18am). Should it be added to the map? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 10:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

If it is, I'd recommend the more accurate romanisation "Noufaliyah". -Kudzu1 (talk) 11:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Or An Nawfaliyah. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Considering this is well east of Sirt, I'm changing that back to green. No confirmed reports of fighting there. Kwamikagami (talk) 13:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Reverted, and I reverted back. None of the discussion above supports fighting in Sirt that I can see. Kwamikagami (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

AJE has not retracted-they're still broadcasting that forces are just outside Sirt, 11pm Japan time.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Southern cities

We have a lot of cities in the south of the country marked as in control of one group or the other. Do we have independent confirmation of this? Are we sure that Al Jawf is in rebel hands, and Sabha, Hun, and Ghat are in government hands? Or are these educated guesses? We really don't want to be displaying data we're not sure of.

I have to go to work now but I look forward to a response. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I would assume that there were reports that Al Jawf revolted, just as many northern towns did, and that there have been no such reports from the others. Sabha is likely under govt control, given that it hosts a large military base and has been struck by coalition forces. Kwamikagami (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK there were some reports early in the conflict of planes sent by Saif to al Jawf packed with guns and money. The people there just took the crates and called out their allegiance to the revolution. But I can't find any article about it. Elllit (talk) 15:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, got it confused with Kufra... that's why I couldn't find anything at first. The towns seem to be pretty close to each other. Elllit (talk) 15:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems Kufra is the name of the basin (larger oasis), Al Jawf being the largest oasis (settlement) within it. Google Maps gives the distance between "Kufra" (i.e. their label of Kufra positioned at a road junction) and Al Jawf as less than 2 km. So pretty close it is. ;-) I believe that the Kufra/Al Jawf can safely be considered one entity considering the small distances inside the basin.--Paracel63 (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Kufra is the historical name of a famous oasis there. The modern city is called Al Jawf but most Libyans would better recognise it as Al Kufra. So it's basically the same. --Rafy (talk) 22:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Anyways, the "sources" I found (about Kufra) are a bunch of youtube videos and an entry on libyafeb17.com. Which both should not count as reliable. As proof is a little shaky... I have no idea what to do about the "southern cities". Elllit (talk) 06:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Al Jawf is in rebel hands, this is the video when population and administration of Al Jawf/Al Khufra declared it joined revolution [1] and also recently whole military command of Al Kufra regioned joined revolution. --89.173.16.218 21:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Here's a source for the Kufra brigades defecting. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

An Nawfaliyah and Uqayla

An Nawfaliyah and Uqayla are looking important in the context of the ongoing war, even if they are very small towns. Other smaller towns may be in the same situation. I think that they should be in the map, since the objective of the map is to inform the division of the Libya between Gadhaffi and the rebels and inform where there are battles, it's purpose is not to show which towns are bigger or smaller. 200.221.128.129 15:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, Battle of An Nawfaliya anyone? 140.247.144.74 17:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Uadi Haraua

Picture of rebels in Uadi Haraua: Libya crisis: live updates

Map of Uadi Haraua: Glosk.com: Uadi Haraua.

Should we add it to the map?

--93.142.166.145 11:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with adding all the small towns between Ajdabia and Sirt to the infobox map... There is simply not enough place for them in a 300px map. There are other maps which focus on the gulf of sirt region out there. -- Rafy (talk) 13:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Sinchronizing images

Please, everyone here. When updating this image, keep this one in sync too. Currently they are out of sync, as Bin Jawad is green in one and red in the other: File:Libyan_Uprising_-_Gulf_of_Sidra.svg 200.221.128.129 17:13, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't even aware that image existed. I'll add it to the template; but I've made a similar request above. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

you can't ask people to look after the dozen spin-offs this image has created. Whoever wants to maintain a derived image will just have to look after updating it themselves. --Dbachmann (talk) 09:04, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure we can; and we did! Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Jalu

Jalu is as or more populous than several towns on the map. Shouldn't it be there too? Far enough from the others that it wouldn't cause any crowding. Kwamikagami (talk) 08:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the World Gazetteer Jalu has a population of just under 8,000. It is however important due to large oil fields in that region. We might add if it's mentioned more often in the news.--Rafy (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

According to WP, the pop is twice that. I don't know which is correct. Kwamikagami (talk) 20:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Brega contested

Brega is by all sources contested, it should be turned blue. Swalgal (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

AP says 'The rebels, backed by airstrikes, have been making incremental advances. On Monday, the town was under rebel control.' http://apne.ws/h6zWOc ScepticMatt (talk) 09:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Reuters update: '"They (Gaddafi's forces) are still near the (western) gate and beyond the gate. The clashes are continuing," said another fighter, who did not give his name.' http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73310720110404?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0 ScepticMatt (talk) 11:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Ghadamis

I'm too lazy to look, so could someone tell me where the evidence is that Ghadamis changed hands from the rebels to Gaddafi? Rafy changed it from brown to green, but there's no link in the image page with a description indicating such a change of hands. 96.26.213.146 10:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Here there is an article of the English Wikipedia about the fall of Ghadamis to the pro Gaddafi forces, where you have references to the sites that confirms the event. --Ave César Filito (talk) 12:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Uhh, I don't see an article there... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. It seems Ghadamis was taken earlier by the Libyan Army and wasn't changed until recently. The article is actually at w:Battle of Ghadames (different spelling). 96.26.213.146 02:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. 96.26.213.146 is OK. It`s Battle of Ghadames and not Battle of Ghadamis. --Ave César Filito (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm currious about small cities northeastt from Ghadamis. They dissapeared from news. Nobody report clashes there. Who is controling them? Last reports are about week late. On www.bbc.com I saw this cities with Gaddafi color. Is there information about fights there? On http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html they are reported as Gaddafys too. There only Zintan is reported as controleb by rebel. Can anyone confirm that? Can you update this part of map more frequently?

Tobruk

Tobruk has recently been changed to Tubruq. In English, Tobruk is the standard transliteration as per the article title. Please would an editor restore the "Tobruk" spelling. Greenshed (talk) 19:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no "standard" transliteration for Tubruq/Tobruq. Furthermore, Arabic doesn't have a vowel O.--Rafy (talk) 12:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the most common name of the city as it comes up in English RS is "Tobruk". Google scholar gives 5020 hits for "Tobruk" and a paltry 82 hits for "Tubruq". Now, this may be merely because the city is overwhelmingly referred to as Tobruk in the context of WWII. However, if we look at news results, we se a similar trend. Compare about 4,750 hits for "Tobruk" and a meagre 13 for "Tubruq". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, this is kind of a silly argument. As I've pointed out above, there is no standard romanization of Arabic, especially Libyan Arabic. Even different media organizations use different names. Any of these calls to change the name to X or Y are just silliness. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The city had been labelled as "Tobruk" for a while, but Rafy slipped in the "Tubruq" spelling a little while back. Yes, it is true that there is no standard transliteration. But that does not change the fact that "Tobruk" is much more common than "Tubruq". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It was unintentional, my edit there was based on a previously saved version on my laptop. I will revert it back as soon as possible.

I was unaware of the spelling "Tobruk" being hugely popular... I simply written it like how a native Libyan would pronounce it. There is actually an ISO standard for transliteration of Arabic, though it has seldom been used.--Rafy (talk) 11:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Undoubtedly because it has all those diacritic marks, none of which are natural to English. It might look fine in an academic context, but no one is going to use those unless they have to. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Brega retaken by pro Gaddafi forces

The city of Brega was retaken by Loyalists. Se the comments of Al Jazeera [2]. The rebels confirmed it. Green? --Ave César Filito (talk) 23:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Brega has flip-flopped quite a bit in the past few days. Give it a few more hours. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

In the English Wikipedia Article w:Third Battle of Brega] they put that the victory was Gaddafi´s with references. --Ave César Filito (talk) 01:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I know. I participated in a brief talk-page discussion there where it was agreed that we should wait a bit for confirmation that this is indeed the final rebel retreat of the battle. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Loyalists retreat from Brega

The map has just been changed to indicate that Gaddafist forces have captured Brega. However, recent news indicates the exact opposite: see here. The map should be reverted. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

-I Reverted it. Besides even if loyalists forces did not retreat, rebels will still be fighting directly outside of Brega, thus should be blue anyways. But correspondents on the ground confirmed that most loyalists left. Zenithfel (talk) 22:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera English, AlJazeera Arabic,NYT, etc... All claim that the fighting is taking place between Brega and Ajdabiya. So why should we ignore them all and stick to Xinhua (which probably don't have their own reporters in Libya).--Rafy (talk) 11:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Xinhua was the first news report I found. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

This source here http://www.standard.net/topics/middle-east/2011/04/07/gadhafi-plane-evades-nato-no-fly-zone-bombs-rebel-tanks has Brega as back in Libyan hands and Ajbabya as contested

As reports came out 8. april, Brega is in hands of Government forces, and Rebels are pulling out of Ajdabya. Brega can be in green, Ajdabya in blue. --Mile (talk) 07:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Reports that I am seeing show that it is mostly civilians fleeing Ajdabiya, with a few of the more flighty irregulars following them. Fighting still is on the coastal highway between Brega and Ajdabiya. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The page for the 3rd battle of Brega is listed as a loyalist victory, shoudn't this map match that? 86.7.224.140 22:08, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Archive Time?

Do you guys think it might not be time to archive this? It's getting pretty long. Maybe everything from "24 March" and earlier? --175.201.133.250 00:48, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Be my (our) guest. w:WP:BOLD, w:Template:Sofixit. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't know I was allowed to create new pages on the Commons without an account. --175.201.133.250 03:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Ajdabiya under atack

Ajdabiya should be moved to blue; it´s being atacked by Pro Gaddafi forces. Source: Reuters --Ave César Filito (talk) 14:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Well... maybe red with a blue border. But I just heard from single attacks are they really continuous? Blue should only be for currently fought over sites with major clashes Elllit (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

AJE, showed video of Government troops in Ajdabiya. I suppose Brega is firmly in Government hands-should be green. --Mile (talk) 07:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

AJE also states the video is from "mid-March". (Or,at least the footages are) Elllit (talk) 07:47, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't jump to hasty assumptions. Look at today's live blog – not a single report that Ajdabiya has fallen. Only descriptions of fighting. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

He just inferred that Brega should be green as the main scene of fighting is moved towards Ajdabiya. I'm following the AJE live blog as well. Now there are multiple reports of fighting in (the outskirts) of Ajdabiya, this morning there were just hints. For now the choice of color seems ok, but removing the blue border around Brega should be considered if more sources emerge of the shifting of the front line. Elllit (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

This AJE video seems to indicate that Ajdabiya has been more or less recaptured by the rebels. I suppose we can wait a bit longer to see if there are any counterattacks, though. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Lothar, is there any indiction Brega is under Rebel attack ? I suppose they wont be in battle for Ajdabya with Rebel town in back. --Mile (talk) 11:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread your initial comment to be about Ajdabiya being taken, not Brega. I suppose Brega is under loyalist control at the moment. Most reports that I have seen are now indicating that Gaddafist forces have been thrown out of Ajdabiya, so we'll see how long this situation lasts. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

That said, it is possible to have a contested town behind the front lines if the advancing force bypasses it. This does not seem to be the case here, but it happened in Ajdabiya in March, when Gaddafist forces landed at Zueitina and pushed toward Benghazi while still fighting pockets of rebel forces in the city. There's also the case of Tobruk in WWII, but that's neither here nor there... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Nafusa mountain towns

I'm currious about small cities northeastt from Ghadamis. They dissapeared from news. Nobody report clashes there. Who is controling them? Last reports are about week late. On www.bbc.com I saw this cities with Gaddafi color. Is there information about fights there? On http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html they are reported as Gaddafys too. There only Zintan is reported as controleb by rebel. Can anyone confirm that? Can you update this part of map more frequently?

Arabic news sources report frequent fights in that area with Gaddafi troops making slow progress.--Rafy (talk) 20:52, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Have a look at this. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much information BBC has on this region; it's rather obscure. A contributor to the rebel website libyafeb17.com made this map, which seems to be an accurate model of the situation, given the sporadic reports I have seen. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

From AJEs live ticker: "Our colleagues at Al Jazeera Arabic tell us that opposition fighters have taken Zintan's western gate from Gaddafi's forces." and "They have also prevented Gaddafi's troops from taking over the road between Nalut and Tunis." Both statements suggest ongoing fighting. But I don't know what the first statement implies - is Zintan in loyalist control and attacked by revolutionaries or are revolutionaries defending the town? It seems like the information flow is getting worse every day. Elllit (talk) 15:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

From what I understand, Gaddafist forces only controlled some fragment of Az Zintan around the western gate, from which they were repelled very recently. Most reports speak of frequent shelling of these towns by loyalists, which indicates that they are under rebel control. There was also a report some days or weeks ago about rebels from Nalout and Zintan breaking an encirclement of Yafran. exact details of what is happening are patchy at best, but it can be safely assumed that Zintan is under rebel control. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I concur! Yet, we are only speculating and inferring from what we know/read. Before changing something there should be more hard sources. Elllit (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Al Jawf

Al Jawf was turned to blue some days ago because it was under atack by Pro Gaddafi forces. Did they win the battle? What happened? Are they still fighting?

Has anyone a source about the situation there? Thanks, --Ave César Filito (talk) 15:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

There has been some reports from Libyan media that Gaddafi has sent a force to recapture the city. the town is often cited as "الكفرة" Kufra which can also be translated as "the infidels" in google translate.--Rafy (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I don´t want to sound doubtful but how could he send them to Al Kufra when neareast crossroad is in Jalu, fwe kilometers south of Adjabiya. Al kufra/Al Jawf is in a middle of large desert with one road and one airfield. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:48, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

It has a major airfield. It is also relatively close to Sabha, a major loyalist base.--Rafy (talk) 00:00, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Close to Sabha??? It's almost 1000km away... I believe Al Jawf should be again considered rebel since de Media have not said anything about it. We cannot put it in a fighting situation just because the Regime said it was going to send troops there... it makes no sense... 79.169.199.80 13:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Kufra was reportedly liberated in february and later on in late march besieged. Till now we know nothing of the situation and that's why it should be shown as according to the latest news.--Rafy (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

There is only one regional military district in Al Kufra region and that has defected and althought Libyan Alyoum reported some clashed netheir Gaddafi propaganda machine, nor rebel medias reported anything about some battle happening there. Also is Libya Alyoum trustable at all? If so how come that no one, not even state TV reported anything about that? This sounds fishy all the way from the bottom. Also Sabbha is nowhere close to Al Kufra and also it´s impossible to get there otherway than throught Jalu since airspace is closed and bytheway airfield in Al Kufra is nowhere to major, its regional airfield, you can find video of it on youtube. --EllsworthSK (talk) 01:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Now whether they came on place, camels or marathoned all the way from Sabha they got to Kufra as many media sources report of defections there. Libya Alyoum and Quryna are the only newspapers in the hands of the provisional council, so I have no reason do doubt that their report of Gaddafi is unreliable. As for Libyan TV, have you been watching it lately?--Rafy (talk) 10:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Brega and Ajdabiua

Look these AL Jazerra reports:

"Fierce fighting erupted afresh around the battleground Libyan crossroads town of Ajdabiya on Thursday. A convoy of some 60 rebel vehicles at a staging point west of the city recaptured from loyalist fighters at the weekend came under heavy artillery and mortar fire, prompting a salvo of rockets in riposte.

"The positions of the loyalists of veteran strongman Muammer Gaddafi appeared to be north of the main highway to the oil refinery town of Brega on the central Mediterranean coast, suggesting an attempt by government forces to outflank the rebel fighters."

...and these:

"Muammar Gaddafi's forces opened fire on rebels on the western edge of Ajdabiyah, killing one, insurgent fighters said.

"A rebel manning an anti-aircraft gun was shot dead and two others were wounded in the attack one kilometre from the western gate of Ajdabiyah, last major town before the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. Rebel fighter Mansour Rachid told Reuters:

"´They are in vehicles and they are spread out on foot in the desert. It is very hard to track them. They opened fire on us. We have two wounded and one guy was killed.´"

I think Ajdabiya must be un blue and Brega in green -Al Jazarra says the rebels claimed they were atacking Brega, but they didn´t confirmed. --Ave César Filito (talk) 15:37, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. See this from today's AJE live blog: "1:38pm: Heavy gunfire can now be heard as anti-Gaddafi fighters clash with troops loyal to the longterm leader in eastern Brega."

The sporadic skirmishes on the road outside of Ajdabiya never amounted to anything substantial. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Reuters is also not clear about the situation. Fighting seams to still take place between Ajdabiya and Brega, with a slight shift towards Brega. Elllit (talk) 20:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Loaylists are attacking Ajdabiya. They supposedly have surpassed advancing revolutionaries. Thus, Brega as well Ajdabyia are under attack by revolutionaries and loyalists respectively. see http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-17 at 1:16pm. Elllit (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Accessibility

Unfortunately this otherwise-informative image breaches WCAG accessibility guidelines by using colour alone to differentiate between different designations. This could be resolved by using, say, green circles, brown squares and yellow stars. Could somebody with the requisite skills do this, please? Andy Mabbett (talk) 12:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

You might like to contribute to the thread above: Not colorblind-friendly.... Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately we have to stick to circles since they represent cities population's proportions. Rafy (talk) 13:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We don't have to at all - respectively-increased sizes of squares, circles and starts (or triangles) can adequately convey the same information. Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

We've tweaked the colours several times already to accommodate different forms of colourblindness. Altering the shapes of the icons is bizarre; is there some other way we could differentiate? Perhaps patterns (though that would be difficult for smaller cities)? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Tweaking colours won't help people with monochrome vision - or monochrome printers. Using different shapes is far from bizarre; it;s commonly done in data visualisation. As I pointed out a above, WCAG the well-respected guidelines tell us not to use colour alone to convey information. Andy Mabbett (talk) 22:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it can. Monochromatic vision does not mean that shades cannot be discerned. My printer is monochromatic, so I ran off a copy of the map. The only problem I can see is the "disputed" colour, which is difficult to differentiate from the "rebel" colour. If it were to be made lighter, perhaps even almost white, it could resolve the issue. Shapes are fine for line graphs and such things, but they can make a map very busy-looking. I can imagine if the cities around Tripoli were to become contested or captured by the rebels in a piecemeal (theoretical) offensive. It would look like a children's book about shapes had lost its contents all over the northwestern corner of Libya. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Lothar von Richthofen. Also using shapes will make it much more difficult to update the map. I know it sounds harsh, but people with special needs shouldn't expect others to change everything to suit those needs.--Rafy (talk) 00:51, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with accommodating to special needs, but if we can do it without making it look grotesquely ugly, I say that is far preferable. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:17, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is proposing to make anything "grotesquely ugly". Andy Mabbett (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

"people with special needs shouldn't expect others to change everything to suit those needs": Nor do they - but we can and should make reasonable adjustments, in line with WCAG guidelines, to accommodate them. Andy Mabbett (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that the current map, as printed, is inaccessible. Andy Mabbett (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Just because it is inaccessible to those with monochrome vision does not mean that we need to put a bunch of silly shapes on it. There are colour schemes that accommodate monochrome vision. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Cite? And nobody is proposing "to put a bunch of silly shapes on it". Andy Mabbett (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

What? You suggested that we make the cities different shapes.

We are not putting a bunch of shapes on the map. It becomes a nightmare to update and makes it an absolute eyesore. I have before me a copy of the map printed in black and white. The only problematic colour is the "contested" colour, which could easily be fixed if it were to be made white. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:36, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

While I did indeed suggest using shapes as one possible solution; I did not suggest "a bunch of silly shapes". No citation for your claim, then? Whereas I have cited accessibility guidelines which proscribe the use of colour alone, as currently used on this inaccessible imageAndy Mabbett (talk) 22:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to cite anything for something which should be patently obvious for anyone with a B&W printer. Using white as the "contested" colour would solve all problems. In fact, there was a complaint made at the w:2011 Libyan civil war talkpage about how the red and blue are difficult to distinguish when used in a nested fashion, so we should change it anyway. Using any mish-mash of shapes is silly. Punkt. Common sense > pedantic guidelines. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Nalut

just moved this in from my talk page.--Rafy (talk) 14:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Reports from AP are saying today that since late last month Nalut has been under government control while rebels were the ones that were trying to get into it again. Here is the source [3]. Nalut should be changed on the map to green but leave the blue ring around it. EkoGraf (talk) 12:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, the AREA is in control of Gaddafi's forces, not the city itself. You will have to find refs that state the city itself is under Gaddafi control, one ref that isn't even clear is not enough. Zenithfel (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I have found a source from today that says Gaddafi's forces are currently attacking Nalut with grad rockets.

http://world.bdnews24.com/details.php?id=193694&cid=7

here is another one from today

"In Nalut, four rebels were killed during attempts to repel government forces, according to a rebel named as Ayman."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/21/libyan-refugees-flee-to-tunisia Zenithfel (talk) 12:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The ref was preaty clear, they said the town, not the area, and AP is one of the most reliable ones. But whatever, becoming bored with Wikipedia, do as you like... EkoGraf (talk) 13:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

" The area was in hands of anti-government forces last month before Libyan troops moved in. " Zenithfel (talk) 13:24, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

If the reports are consistent then green is due, otherwise it might be a good idea to colour it blue for now.--Rafy (talk) 14:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The report is not saying that Nalut was ever captured by Gaddafists. It talks of fighting outside Nalut, but never in it. Given the fact that rocket attacks and assaults on the city have been occurring fairly regularly across the past weeks and months, I don't think Nalut can be described as "briefly" being controlled by rebels, but rather consistently. The report is talking about the Dhuheiba border crossing with Tunisia as being briefly held by rebels, then retaken by loyalists, and now apparently recaptured by rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more now that I have read it. Thanks for reverting my changes.--Rafy (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree as well. This map reflects the status of the last well sourced situation. And that is red with blue border ("in insurgent hand but besieged") from my knowledge. I'm following Reuters and Al Jazeera English btw (BBC stopped the live ticker since the tsunami in Japan, didn't they?) as the media in my country is soooo slow on that topic. 79.218.75.1 19:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Rebels declared victory in Misurata

...but it might be unreliable propaganda. Rebel spokespeople claimed a retreat from Misurata by Gaddafi (Libyan Army) forces. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/20114231251998645.html

96.26.213.146 13:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's wait until these "tribes" move in. Might be more fighting to come... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, this doesn't mean any changes on the map. Loyalists are still besieging the city - from a little farther outside now as it seems. 79.218.81.221 16:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

AJE is now reporting, that Misurata is indeed not freed. But insurgents made major gains. (Post at 5:28pm and one earlier) Elllit (talk) 16:12, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Wazzin and Kufra

Wazzin has been recaptured by the loyalists. Edit the map of the Tripolitanian front please. Source here [4]. EkoGraf (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow, this looks like it was a realy good day for the King of kings. Witnesses confirm loyalists have retaken Kufra in the southeast. [5] The retaking of Wazzin and Kufra is most likely the result of the withdrawal from Misrata. They freed up who knows how many thousands of troops for fighting elsewhere. Kufra needs to be changed on the overall map to green. EkoGraf (talk) 16:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Not yet, it may have been captured, but there is still fighting. wait one more day, like we did for Yefren Zenithfel (talk) 16:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

BBC is not reporting anymore fighting, but ok whatever. EkoGraf (talk)

I concur with Zenithfel. Changing the map as fast as the (dis-)informations comes in is not good. We should wait at least a couple of hours. Your link is the only source I have seen so far that states Kufra to be taken. While Wazzin has been verified by multiple sources. Elllit (talk) 18:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Entire situation a little fluid for now. Reuters reports rebels have retaken the border again. http://twitter.com/#!/Reuters Zenithfel (talk) 19:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-28 Confirmed that rebels have retaken the border crossing Zenithfel 20:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that should settle the "We need to wait until the situation seems stable" argument ;) Elllit 21:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we settled that a long time ago, particularly when we had editors trying to mark Sirte as taken based off fleeting rumors (which were obnoxiously parroted without critique by the Al Jazeera blogs). Magog the Ogre 22:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The situation in Al Jawf/Kufra is unclear though; I'm not sure why it's listed as green. Last I heard it was under attack from Gaddafists but I didn't hear confirmation of the outcome. -Kudzu1 05:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The source I did find is Reuters saying it was on Libyan State TV and they couldn't confirm it independently. That's no more reliable a source than Almanara or the 17 February website. -Kudzu1 05:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know the fall of Kufra has been confirmed by the rebels themselves. I only have Arabic sources though.[6][7]--Rafy 07:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it was also confirmed by TNC. There were also reports about rebels sending reinforcements to Al Kufra. --EllsworthSK 21:04, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Situation definitely unclear now. It looks like the government attack on Al kufra was not an occupation forces, but rather a simple raid, the same forces have now moved toward Jalu, mostly abandoning Kufra, and rebels still hold a portion of the city. Wlll revert map to blue. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10722695&ref=rss Zenithfel (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Getting news from that hole in the desert of town is hard as it gets. Also guess what´s new? Rebels and loyalists are battling once again for control of Wazzin [8]. Given the importance of this border crossing in last days and to whole Nafusa mountains area shouldn´t we add it on the map? --EllsworthSK (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)