File talk:Interview Aaron Saxton part 4 of 7.ogv

 

Transcript

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Aaron: - they got 150 US dollars - back in 1992 - 120, 150 US dollars for a hand-made, Egyptian cotton shirt. And WE were made to hand-wash them for THEM, because we couldn't, you, put it in a machine. That one shirt that he got was worth more than all the uniforms I would get in two years.

Carmel: Yep. But you had a senior position too, you were, what was your?

Aaron: Oh, I took luxuries. I mean, after they left the base, I always made sure there was enough good food left over for me and some of MY people in the Messenger Organisation, too. I mean, we ate like kings as well, so we liked them coming down. Because, after they left, who gets the spoils of war? We do... you know. We go, went off and finished off that big shopping that we did. It was so 'tragic' for us if the executives had to leave early, because all that great food and stuff... I mean, we DREAMED about food like this! You get what you're eating in the Sea Org. We put them on beans and rice at the Flag Land Base to teach them a lesson, I mean I'm not talking beans and rice, I'm talking beans and rice for breakfast, lunch AND dinner, ok?

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And they try to go off to the canteen to buy food - we post security guards to prevent them from buying other food, because otherwise the punishment wasn't being enforced,

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: understood by the staff member.

Carmel: Right. So were you guys on beans and rice at the same time?

Aaron: Y'know, actually sometimes we were, yeah.

Carmel: But sometimes you weren't?

Aaron: Nah, sometimes we got away with it, yeah... because technically we weren't part of the Flag Land Base. We were "Messengers". And, over in Los Angeles as well, uhm, we'd find ways to get around it. I mean, the Messengers are a power unto their own, they're a law unto themselves. They're not answerable to anybody. If we really wanted to get around something, we could do that.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: I mean, the idea is we looked at management like chalk and cheese. Management and Scientologists are the scum that we have to deal with, and frankly any bullshit that they give us is an inconvenience to us, you know? We're the Messengers, we're authorised by policy to do anything we want. You can't stop us, there's nothing you can do... so everything that went wrong with management was looked at not as a responsibility but as a "Oh god, here we go again, gotta fix this", you know. And... I look at a staff list, I see names. I don't see humans, I see names. I don't look, I don't look at a person's file and see a human being that has horrible experiences as a child or what happened to them. I look and go "Christ. Is he going to fall apart if I put him on that post?" My consideration isn't to fix him, my consideration is: can I use him?

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: Is he good enough for what I want, is he robust enough? Does he turn off enough so that he can put up with this position I'm going to give him? Care of staff members... I'm sorry, we have an ethics office. We don't have a chaplain. There IS nobody to go grieve to. You grieve to the ethics officer. I was the ethics officer. And the solution is always the same: "You did something wrong. You're the cause of your demise and you're wasting. My. Time. Get. Out." And then after that if he still misbehaves "Christ, ok, we'll give him a Committee of Evidence. We'll give him a Declare." These are extremes, to go declaring a person is an extreme action, you're cutting him all of from everybody he knows.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And what concerns me is that we've got people out there, uh, who have had positions similar to mine, within the Sea Organisation, within the Church, such as Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder, and I'm not understanding why they keep coming forward with these statements that "I'm a victim". They were the aggressors!

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Everyone's a victim, if you really want to go down to that level, we're all victims, you know. But, hang on, we're talking about thousands of people world wide and the stories coming out from all levels and apparently no-one's doing it, it's just all a magic trick. I'm sorry, but Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are totally responsible, they stood by and watched while they instructed their HCO communications officers to do these things to their own staff, to deny them liberties, to deny them days off. This is not a crime? Basic fundamental human rights in a civilised society say: you get medical treatment, you have the right to work some certain hours, you should enjoy life, you should do other activities. And Mike Rinder, as the commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs, DENIED these rights to his staff. Marty Rathbun, as the Inspector General for Ethics, just stood by while the technology was changed and gave his big rubber stamp.

Carmel: Technology changed?

Aaron: Yeah, there was a project set up years ago in Scientology to change it because it was realised that Ron Hubbard had said some pretty far-out things.

Carmel: Yeah?

Aaron: Was coming under scrutiny, the book all about radiation contained clear falsehoods. A lot of his books did. They had to be fixed to make Scientology credible. So, slowly change the policy letters; L. Ron Hubbard becomes a trademark, not a human being.

Carmel: So who was in charge of that project then?

Aaron: Don't know who was in charge of that project. It was a general fundamental agreement, but Marty Rathbun himself, as the Inspector General for Technology, signed off on these things. He stood by and allowed this to actually go. My Messenger Organisation that I was part of had the office of the Senior Case Supervisor International.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Rubber stamped: change it, change it, change it! I mean, all these books and things that have come out, and, and all the technology has been changed, what you're a-, being asked to believe here is that Ron Hubbard himself had that Saint Hill special briefing course, which included all materials on Scientology, himself was a squirrel! His own technology, that he delivered to, personally supervised to people, thousands! Was all wrong! And somehow, he didn't even look at his own dictionary. He didn't even look at his own policy letters. Yet he was teaching it for years. This is the epitome of utter ridiculousness. That at the start of every course in Scientology, and in the Sea Org, there is "Keeping Scientology Working", which says "any alteration to the tech". But David Miscavige and people like Marty Rathbun said: "Oh, but, you know, we found a new document that says that Ron Hubbard really meant this." Well, where's the document? And when finally people asked on OT levels, saying "Excuse me, but did Ron really say this?" it took them about a decade to finally come out with a handwritten L. Ron Hubbard pages. Did they really come from Ron? Why did it take ten years to get them out?

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Takes a long time to, to write somebody's handwriting. If you're good enough.

Carmel: Yep. So tell me, uhm, what did, what was your procedure, or how, how were, uhm, critics handled? how were critics, critics viewed, uhm, like threats to the Church? What was your procedure on handling them or dealing with them?

Aaron: There's a specific procedure. The procedure is: when you've got this critic, he's gotten the information from somewhere, to come and attack. Where did he get that information from? And once you identified the source of that, and it's always a human being, ok, find out a way to discredit them. Now people talk about, uhm, on the Internet and on boards and in books that Scientology, uhm, or not Scientology but the management of Scientology, uhm, manipulate information. Well, here's the big shock to everyone out there who's looking at this: is that thing you call a pr- priest petinent privileged file is not privileged. True, the auditor, per- person auditing you and the case supervisor above that auditor are probably never going to discuss those details. Most of them are very good like that, they wouldn't violate that sacred trust. The trust is only entrusted to them. I can still, as a Messenger, walk into the folder room and grab anyone's PC file, and read it. And that's exactly what I did. I can look in their file and see: "right, this person has admitted when he was seven year olds to having a dog lick his genitals, he's admitted to having sex with a woman that was legally underage. Oh, I've got this boy now!" Now, how do I get that information out of this file into the public domain? There's several solutions to it. First solution is: I can get him to admit it. What, how on earth would you do that? You approach them and you sit them down and you say "Look... uhm, we're gonna put you through a security check, ok? This is just to clear up everything, make everything in order, and then we're gonna, we're gonna clear you and give you a new post! Ok?" And the guy goes "Ooh, cool!" You sit him down, security check questions, tick tick tick tick. He sits down - he's not under auditing session any more - and the auditor says, still an auditor but not doing an auditing session: "So, have you had, ever had -