Commons talk:Ancient Chinese characters project
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NEW! On dominant objective[edit]
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Visualizing the work done for the 214 radicals !
[edit]- Ancient Chinese characters/order
Done, thanks to everyone !!! priority: high
- Ancient Chinese characters/red -- 200 missing. priority: low. Resource: File:214_Kangxi_stroke_order_friendly.svg & https://jsfiddle.net/Lfbav31h/
- Ancient Chinese characters/oracle -- 62 missing. priority: high
- Ancient Chinese characters/bronze -- 46 missing. priority: high
- Ancient Chinese characters/bigseal -- 40 missing. priority: high
- Ancient Chinese characters/seal
Done, thanks to Warzaz and LiliCharlie !! priority: high
- Ancient Chinese characters/clerical -- priority: low, fonts widely available
- Ancient Chinese characters/mingti-kangxi
Done, thanks LiliCharlie !-- priority: low, fonts widely available
- Ancient Chinese characters/kaishu -- priority: low, fonts widely available
- .png :
Done
- .svg :
Done (but name issue).
- .png :
- Ancient Chinese characters/cursive -- priority: low, fonts widely available
--Yug (talk) 17:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note : In parallel to this ACC project, User:LiliCharlie has created great SVG datasets for CJK radicals. Images in these datasets, while following a different naming convention, could be :
- for 540 Shuowen radicals in seal style, some files could be duplicated to fill the missing ACC's seal.
- for 494 Kangxi radicals in Kaishu style, a naming convention should be found in order to handle variants, then files migration to the existing
{zi}-{t|s|j|k|…}{kaishu}.svg
ACC kaishu serie. - for Kangxi radicals in a kangxi variant of sonti style, be renamed to create a new Kangxi set of svg files.
- Yug (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- As far as naming conventions are concerned: Are you aware that Unicode will encode Chinese "pre-Hàn" characters on the Tertiary Ideographic Plane and not unify them with 汉字 proper? —LiliCharlie (talk) 16:55, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- I like your question OoO.
- (1) I knewn it was a technical possibility but didn't know it was on an official unicode roadmap.
- (2) The ACC project stands upon Unihan. The extrem typography and multiple glyphs flexibility of pre-Li Si is put aside. The ACC project focus on one glyp for one style for each one modern character. We have in mind the illustration of learning materials, by example, Wikipedia ^^.
- Due to diverging national guidelines for modern days Kaishu, we also must accept variants, generally {t|s|j|k|h} for trad, simp, jap, korean, hongkongese. We also add some other variants code for "atypic" or "historical variants" which we only store for rare illustrative purposes but not aim to cover properly (for all characters).
- (3) As of now and for Kangxi style and kaishu style, I thing it could be technically ok. I noticed your naming scheme ({0|1|2|3|4}), could of some help. Did you notice if these numbered >0 variants are each attached to one separate country, or if you saw them all coming from a single country ? Yug (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- PS: This is mind flowing ^0^ --Yug (talk) 20:46, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- As far as naming conventions are concerned: Are you aware that Unicode will encode Chinese "pre-Hàn" characters on the Tertiary Ideographic Plane and not unify them with 汉字 proper? —LiliCharlie (talk) 16:55, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, and note that not all small seal characters in http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15281-n4688-small-seal.pdf have a corresponding modern Hàn character (e.g. numbers 93 through 96), so the current naming conventions will not be applicable for those. —LiliCharlie (talk) 23:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
- It's beautiful....... U.U. They will also design with more regularity than we do. And I have a lead (NodeJS) to extract all these characters into
{unicode}-seal.svg
files :D Yug (talk) 16:10, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- It's beautiful....... U.U. They will also design with more regularity than we do. And I have a lead (NodeJS) to extract all these characters into
- Yes, and note that not all small seal characters in http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15281-n4688-small-seal.pdf have a corresponding modern Hàn character (e.g. numbers 93 through 96), so the current naming conventions will not be applicable for those. —LiliCharlie (talk) 23:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
References
[edit]Covering pictograms
[edit]Quest for open fonts in Kaishu, Songti, Lishu
[edit]Community vision
[edit]Hello all, on some of the ACC project's aspects I feel we need more clarity. The Template:Chinese characters naming page and its bottom gather some helpful indications. Yet I collected the following questions below, and would like to discuss them in a focused manner so to clarify it which way we are walking. Also, your input would much welcome as the community has to set its common vision.
1. Radicals or characters for Kangxi uploads ?
[edit]Observe the differences here: https://jsfiddle.net/vd0jawLy/ . According to wikt:User:Yug/kangxi-rads, we mainly use characters-radicals in filenames. There is reasons to belive MediaWiki makes a systematic shift toward characters : in wikt:Module:User:Yug/char-summary's sourceedit field, both sets are present. In wikt:Module:User:Yug/char-summary's published version, the characters are present twice. Yug (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
I just noticed it is not clear for me where whe should put our kangxi radicals image. See File:⿓-kaishu.svg (radical U+2FD3) and File:龍-kaishu.svg (character U+9F8D). Do we have a policy on that ? From Ancient_Chinese_characters/kaishu it seems we are uploading on characters. Did someone noticed that and made a policy ? Yug (talk) 22:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
2. Redirect ?
[edit]Hello folks, I just noticed the ambiguous case of simplified characters for the ACC project. Few points to discuss tho !
- Uploads go upon {traditional character}-{era-style}.svg, defacto and rightfully.
- {simplified character}-{era-style}.svg should generally stay empty (no image), right ?
- {simplified character}-{era-style}.svg should be red as in no file available, or blue as in redirect available. We currently do both. I just added one
Yug (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
- I think Redirect for simplified characters is unnecessary. In English Wiktionary, {{Han simp}} can redirect users to check the traditional form. In Chinese and Japanese Wiktionary, {{:Han etyl|<the simplified character / Shinjitai>}} can show the same content as the traditional one. --Wargaz (talk) 23:21, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
3. What to do with accidental graphic features/details/noise ?
[edit]We will start to tag categories as eitherhistorically accurate
vsidealized simplifications
such as computer fonts. Yug (talk) 20:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/%E6%96%97-bronze-warring.svg/100px-%E6%96%97-bronze-warring.svg.png)
I wonder if we on the ACC project are storing the exact replicas of archaeological signs, including their accidental features and details. Or if we are storing the conceptual drawing, cleaned up from these accidental features. From the direction we take on this point will flow a series of related decisions. Yug (talk) 19:15, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
4. Documenting today's characters origins or documenting past characters ?
[edit]See #3. Some categories will be archeological works. Some will be simplifications for teaching purpose. Yug (talk) 20:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
It is still unclear if our aim is to illustrate the ancestors of today characters, using the point of view and light from nowadays professors teaching to nowadays kids.
Or if we want to documents historical signs, a number of them who are now dead in themselves, replaced by other sign for same meaning, and not currently covered by the common CJK(V) unicode plane. We are now touching this issue. Yug (talk) 12:12, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
2018 New Year wishes and welcome !
[edit]Clerical script
[edit]Sorting out Clerical categories : Category:Clerical script vs Category:Clerical script characters & ({{ACClicense}})
[edit]ACC Quality control and review : needs for a system
[edit]ACClicense may contain conditional parameter which ends up creating Categories for review. Better understanding of it is needed. Yug (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Frigoris rightfully opened a character review on File talk:毋-bronze.svg. But it's actually a thing we should both do more and be able to track properly on the long run.
The most basic level would be a 3 stages tracker such as :
- Review completed: item(s) successfully reviewed in past year or so, so users who missed the discussion can review again and provide new lights.
- Review ongoing: item(s) under active discussion. An issue have been identified, is discussed, and we are discussing what to do.
- File talk:毋-bronze.svg — currently under review.
- Needs review: item(s) which may contain errors unidentified yet.
- {{ACC category}}
- Category:Clerical Han script characters — mostly uploaded by new contributor currently learning by doing, may need review for consistency (templates, filenames).
File:女-oracle-J26001.svg — renaming of an upload done years ago by an user unaware of the ACC project. ACClicense and values quickly copied from
file:女-oracle.svg, but are inexact. The best match I found was Oracle J26001 from Richard Sears. I'am still confused by ACClicense and didn't fully cleaned it up. Yug (talk) 19:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- Resize svg frames to 300x300px, character to 270px:
Done File:鬲-bronze.svg,
Done
Done File:鬲-bigseal.svg
The upper end organisation would be something systematic such as Wikipedia articles quality evaluation system. If anyone has the energy or/and knowledge materialize to something in this direction, it's welcome. Yug (talk) 14:31, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
Which suffix for Kangxi style
[edit]Renaming done. See advancement summary at the top of next section. Yug (talk) 14:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Kangxi radicals to update
[edit]Renaming discussion closed : file to be moved to → {rad}-mingti-kangxi.svg
Renaming
Done, via MediaWiki JS's script. Yug (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Update page description : to push next. Yug (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/%E4%BA%BA-mingti-kangxi.svg/100px-%E4%BA%BA-mingti-kangxi.svg.png)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/%E9%BE%8D-mingti-kangxi.svg/100px-%E9%BE%8D-mingti-kangxi.svg.png)
Hi there, I got the authorisation by LiliCharlie to truly integrate Category:The 214 Kangxi radicals in the dictionary’s own style (in SVG format) into ACC project. This means 214× :
- file renaming: File:Kangxi_Style_Kangxi_Radical_009.svg → File:人-mingti-kangxi.svg.
- {{ACClicense}} tagging.
I'am moving to use programmatic approach to move and edit files via MediaWiki JS as shown in :
See also :
- mw:Manual:Interface/JavaScript#Personal_scripts and User:Yug/common.js which moved the 2 first files programmatically.
- Commons:Bots & Commons:User scripts -- the script cited above starts to shows bot-like properties.
Yug (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Given my user rights, I have ratelimits
such as :
"ratelimits": { "move": { "user": { "hits": 8, "seconds": 60 }, "autopatrolled": { "hits": 32, "seconds": 60 } }, };
So I may move 32 files per minute. In 8 runs the 214 are done. Yug (talk) 13:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Kangxi serie phase 1: renaming
[edit]Done via MediaWiki JS's script. Yug (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Kangxi serie phase 2: ACC updates
[edit]This Kangxi serie currently have no ACC tagging, but it is required.
See also : wikt:User:Yug/kangxi-rads, Category:Shuowen_seal_script_characters. Yug (talk) 10:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Approach: I would like to use this opportunity to learn about bot/scripts and page edition's via content mw:API:GET, replace, mw:API:EDIT (POST new content). See also NodeJS/Javascript module Wikiapi. Yug (talk) 11:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Dating of bronze-script characters and file names
[edit]Hello @Yug and Micheletb, I noticed that some files following the name pattern File:X-bronze.svg
(where X
stands for a character), intended to be used for the Western Zhou era (according to {{Chinese characters naming}}), were likely or suspected to be from another time period. For example:
- File:万-bronze.svg, from the Warring States 單䇎討戈 (now in the collection of Category:Changsha Museum), "correct" name would have been
万-bronze-warring.svg
- File:湘-bronze.svg, from the Warring States 鄂君啓舟/車節. The file File:湘-bronze-warring.svg already exists (uploaded by myself, using another instance of the same character in the text without realising the duplication)
- File:叡-bronze.svg, clearly the one from the Zhongshan bronzes of the Warring States. The character has not been found in W-Zhou lexicon.
- File:尚-bronze.svg, another one from Zhongshan.
- File:而-bronze.svg, again from Zhongshan.
- File:洹-bronze.svg, likely from 洹子孟姜壺, Spring and Autumn
- File:珈-bronze.svg, from the famous Category:Bianzhong of Marquis Yi of Zeng, Warring States
- File:維-bronze.svg, from the 蔡侯殘鐘s of Spring and Autumn
- ... etc.
Others without confident identification of source
- File:州-bronze.svg, possibly from a Shang inscription.
- File:期-bronze.svg, possibly from a Spring and Autumn inscription. The term itself wasn't familiar in W-Zhou inscriptions.
- File:冶-bronze.svg, suspected Warring States script based on style. The character itself was rare if attested at all in W-Zhou lexicon, and became widespread in Warring States (due to the use of hallmarks).
- File:及-bronze.svg, suspected as the one from 齊𩍂氏鐘, Spring and Autumn.
There could have been many more which I cannot possibly check any time soon.
The reason why this is a problem, is that
- it causes confusion about historical dating of characters, as suggested by {{Chinese characters naming}};
- it confuses automated tools at sibling projects such as Wiktionary, where the glyphs were injected by etymology templates into pages and displayed under headings such as "Western Zhou", "Spring and Autumn", etc., apparently based on file names here. If the file name doesn't reflect the historical dating, no matter the metadata, the display there will be off. (I think there must be a reason why those projects trust file names rather than metadata?)
The question is then what to do about them?
- Conventional rename (leaving a file redirect, possibly the one preferred overall here on Commons?): This seems to require additional working on the Wiktionary side. Currently, for its effect, see the page at the English Wiktionary page for 返. The duplication of the same glyph is caused by the redirect here. I know next to nothing about how to fix it there, but I can post a message to Wiktionary about this.
- Rename without leaving redirect? This seems to mean lots of extra work on Commons, because it amounts to deleting
File:
s? - The status quo; do nothing. But I can't see a reason for this, except it's the easiest one.
- Others? I.e. change/reinterpret the ACC naming conventions?
I wonder how you think about it. --Frigoris (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- What if we completely delete, then re-upload under a more suitable filename? Is that 100% equivalent to renaming without leaving a redirect? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie, thanks! My impression is that deletion is difficult without sufficient privileges. Isn't it necessary to nominate for deletion, obtain consensus, and then delete, for each file? As for "speedy deletion", I don't know whether in this case the incorrectly named files can be "speedily deleted", although I attempted once with File:返-bronze.svg (still pending). --Frigoris (talk) 19:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- On speedies deletions:
- If you are the uploader, the speedy suppression asked as "Request by creator (Erroneous upload)" is always approved rapidly. "Request by creator" also vastly gets approved : we assume the uploader found a mistake, made a judgment, and is correcting it via the speedy.
- If you aren't the creator, you still can request as file's speedy via "Erroneous upload to delete (Category clean up ongoing as approved by Commons ACC project's team)." It should get approved.
- The most difficult to delete are redirect pages, which per rules are not to be deleted so legacy links from wikimedia wikis and external websites still get a page and redirect. This rule does not account for project like our ACC project, where the filename his central and meaningful.
- Other speedies are quite smooth to get. Yug (talk) 08:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie and Frigoris, Also, if I remember well,
*-bronze.svg
was the initial namespace for ALL bronze styles so we may get a "complete" set. Then came nuances: we opened up the substyles and*-bronze.svg
is now defined as "Casted bronze scripts, Western Zhou period". It is therefor likely that this*-bronze.svg
namespace actually still contains subnamespaces [non Western Zhou period] items. Since bronze wasn't my domain of activity I have no memory of any rules to handle such cases now that we have several namespaces for bronzes. Yug (talk) 09:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie and Frigoris, Also, if I remember well,
- @LiliCharlie, thanks! My impression is that deletion is difficult without sufficient privileges. Isn't it necessary to nominate for deletion, obtain consensus, and then delete, for each file? As for "speedy deletion", I don't know whether in this case the incorrectly named files can be "speedily deleted", although I attempted once with File:返-bronze.svg (still pending). --Frigoris (talk) 19:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Jin handwriting script added to the Xiaoxuetang character evolution database
[edit]Good news everyone. Fantastic news.
The Xiaoxuetang character evolution database now includes the Jin scripts from the Houma Oaths (侯馬盟書). Those were a collection of oath texts brushed on stone tablets by the co-conspirators of various political plots, including the lead-up to the partition of Jin.
--Frigoris (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Navbox
[edit]Hello everyone,
With the recent arrival of User:FanNihongo, his creation of a new tutorial and questions for guidance I went for a new clean up push and realized the place is quite a mess. We barely have a list of our own pages and subpages. As FanNihongo asked in which direction he may contribute, I started to collect past progress lists,gathering those pages below and created this navbox :
This navbox could be expanded to include the ACC project more, as well as tutorials, conventions, todo lists and any relevant page as long as relevant to the SOP/ACC projects. Please add relevant lost pages or lists you may bump over in that navbox. After gathering most of it, we will consider to split it 2 navboxes (SOP vs ACC) if required. As for today, I simply wish to ping the team about this navbox and the direction it can take. So feel free, as you find lost subpages, to add them in there.
As for the Stroke Order Project it is also increasingly necessary, by respect for potential contributors, to point more visibly to automated efforts which are MakeMeAHanzi, animCJK and Hanzi Writer, and on tutorials to programatically import content from them (github, bot & co). I add this to my to do, and as you may have noticed in past few years, I will do a push on that "somedays".
Best regards to each of you ^^ Yug (talk) 12:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think I start to see the end of this mapping effort. But if you bump into other pages, please add them somewhere on {{SOP/Progress navbar}} (or its talkpage).Yug (talk) 13:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)