Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:1 taipei sunrise panorama 2015.jpg
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File:1 taipei sunrise panorama 2015.jpg, featured
[edit]Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes.Voting period ends on 8 Jan 2015 at 21:08:34 (UTC)
Visit the nomination page to add or modify image notes.
Original nomination with little chance of success
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Alternative 1: Reworked in rectillinear projection
[edit]- Comment Happy new year to all of you! I have reworked the image based on the raw files, tried to keep the look similar but address the noise/sharpening issue. I think that the issues pointed out above are now solved adequately. Julian, Tuxyso, Daniel Case, Kreuzschnabel and Colin, please have another look. Of course any further comments are welcome. Keep in mind that this is a 100° view, something one gets from a 15mm lens, so it is very wide and the view is a bit extraordinary.
- Support --DXR (talk) 12:59, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Can I suggest you try another projection than rectilinear (e.g. General Panini in Hugin) to see if this minimises distortion at the lower corners. You could use the sliders Hugin has for that projection to keep the top half closer to rectilinear while the bottom remains closer to cylindrical. -- Colin (talk) 13:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
SupportIt is better than the above, though my query about projection remains. -- Colin (talk) 10:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Colin, Diliff, here is the Panini general projection version. I am not a big fan of using Pan-gen or any other cylindrical projections in scenes that can be realistically captured with existing wide angle lenses. In addition, the bent street in the foreground that does not exist like this in reality is a EV problem for me. --DXR (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose I've changed my support to oppose now as it is no longer the finest: the panini is much better. I agree the street curves but the rectilinear is not without its gross distortions: those buildings at the bottom are not really trapezium shaped -- the width/height proportions are all wrong as well as wonky angles. So at an individual-building-level, the panini projection is greatly superior and closer to reality for EV. One of the glorious features of a high-resolution panorama like this is being able to study it in detail, and that cannot be done as realistically with the rectilinear: if I fill my screen with any portion of the panini projection, it is more or less accurate with no curve visible but if I do the same with the rectilinear, then much of it is very unpleasant and not at all realistic. -- Colin (talk) 12:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- DXR, would you consider offering the Panini projection as an alt (and perhaps collapsing the original nomination image, which won't go anywhere now). I think that is the fairest approach (if everyone who voted is pinged) rather than having to go through a possible delist/replace afterwards. Alternatively, if this is too complicated now, just reboot the whole nom with the two projections. -- Colin (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Colin, while I disagree with your assessment concerning the superiority of the panini projection in this case, I'm not too fussed about which version is promoted (as long as one of them is), so I have followed your advice. -- DXR 19:38, 2 January 2015
- Colin, Diliff, here is the Panini general projection version. I am not a big fan of using Pan-gen or any other cylindrical projections in scenes that can be realistically captured with existing wide angle lenses. In addition, the bent street in the foreground that does not exist like this in reality is a EV problem for me. --DXR (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support --Tuxyso (talk) 17:10, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support --LivioAndronico talk 19:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support. I too would be interested to see how it looks with panini projection, but regardless, I think it's more than deserving of support. Diliff (talk) 00:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support better looking than the original. Well done! Nikhil (talk) 05:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support This is it! Well done DXR! --Kreuzschnabel 08:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Weak Support. I like the non-edited sky (didn't notice that problem in the original before). I don't have any strong feelings concerning the projection. The colours, especially in the sky, are a little less beautiful than in the previous version in my opinion, and the clarity in the sky is a change for the worse to me. Especially the top right area seems to have lost its beauty. The off-center areas definitely look cleaner, so that's an improvement, but I actually find that the tower has lost considerable detail. That's a necessary tradeoff I guess. — Julian H.✈ (talk/files) 10:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- I understand your point of view. I have tried to match the look, which really is not that easy if you are starting from the raw files, but I don't rule out that somebody else could do a better job at this. One observation I have made, also based on the Toledo images I processed this summer (Original, Edit), is that Hugin imo is better at balancing exposure differences between frames. This does however also mean that nice, but somewhat coincidential, gradients in the sky disappear. --DXR (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose as per Colin above. Yann (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support--ArildV (talk) 10:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Alternative 2: Reworked in panini general projection
[edit]- Comment As suggested by Colin. I have expressed above why I prefer rectillinear projection, but of course the reviewers should be free to choose from both options. I'm sorry for the constant pinging, but just for fairness' sake everybody who voted above should be aware of the alt. Tuxyso, LivioAndronico, Diliff, Nikhil, Kreuzschnabel, Julian, Yann --DXR (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support Sure! --LivioAndronico talk 19:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support Better. Yann (talk) 19:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose. I don't really like the way it's curved the horizontal lines in the foreground. For this image, I think Panini is unnecessary. If the horizontal field of view was larger, it would be more useful. Diliff (talk) 20:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support The comparison of different projections has imho a high educational value. The answer to the question which one of these is better is imho not trivial and a matter of personal taste. Our "naturalists" will argue that those curved lines are not "real" and are bad per se. For me some curvature in those wide panoramic views has an aesthetic merit. --Tuxyso (talk) 20:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I would agree with you if it were only a matter of taste, but we still have a responsibility to represent the subject accurately. I'm not saying rectilinear is more 'correct', but it is the projection that we usually expect to see and I think it is therefore the preferred projection except when excessive distortion makes it unpractical. I don't think the rectilinear distortion is enough that Panini projection is warranted, but that's just my opinion. Diliff (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Rectilinear is not the projection we see since our retina is not a plane, and it is only a classical choice for 2D works for small angle-of-view (Diliff you will remember from our discussions last year that the great renaissance artists discussed this and thought something round 45-degrees (if memory serves me) was reasonable -- hardly 100-degrees). Our eyes in fact only see accurately in a tiny centre area (as I know you know) and outside this area is very blurred and much constructed by the mind. Therefore I'd claim that the Panini in getting the accuracy right in small areas is far more representative of what we see than the Rectilinear which completely fails to get the accuracy right at the building-level. Neither projections are 100% accurate but the gross building-distortion in the rectilinear is far more dishonest imo. Looking again at the rectilinear, the road may be straight in one axis but the buildings actually look like they are tilting to fall off the bottom of the screen like some disaster movie. -- Colin (talk) 11:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think it was far greater than 45 degrees, probably closer to 60 or 70. 45 degrees is quite conservative. I know rectilinear isn't the projection we see with our own eyes but it is the projection that we usually expect to see in a photograph - that's what I meant. I agree with you that the rectilinear projection has its share of problems relating to the distortion, but I generally prefer it as a projection because it preserves the relationship between objects slightly better and objects retain their true shape, albeit stretched along the plane. With the panini projection, objects become bent, and it gives the illusion that the angle of view is much narrower than it really is. This helps with distortion but comes with its own dishonesty. I accept that no projection is free of limitations though, and clearly I'm in the minority this time. Diliff (talk) 09:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- See this reference. "90° is the visual angle accepted since the Renaissance as the outer limit of images projected onto a plane... The practical limit for an acceptable visual cone has historically been a 60° circle of view — a suggestion first made by Piero della Francesca in c.1470 and repeated often since then. In fact, depending on the geometry of the principal form and the location of the vanishing points, a 40° circle of view or less is much more typical. Leonardo da Vinci devoted many pages in his notebooks (c.1490) to the analysis of perspective distortions, and he especially disliked the exaggerated apparent size of the perspective grid as it reached the ground line of the image plane. He recommended painting an object as it appears from a distance of 3 to 10 times its actual dimensions. This is equivalent to placing the figure within a 19° to 6° circle of view. In fact, modern vision research has found that most people say an object "fills their field of view" once it occupies approximately a 20° circle of view; the classical French rule has been to contain the image within a 30° circle of view." I'm not sure about your "true shape" claim -- the individual buildings at the lower corner are surely much closer to their "true shape" in the panini than the rectilinear. Only a mathematician could love the "relationship" those buildings have with reality. -- Colin (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- The difference is that painters like Leonardo had the ability to suspend reality and imagine the view through walls to create the perspective of their choosing. Photographers have to work with physical limitations. I particularly enjoyed reading "Only a mathematician could love the "relationship" those buildings have with reality" though. :-) I suppose you're right. The panini view looks better when viewing at 100%, because you just don't see the bending of straight lines at that magnification. It's more of an issue when viewing the image as a whole, whereas the rectilinear view becomes less distasteful, the greater the viewing distance. Diliff (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- See this reference. "90° is the visual angle accepted since the Renaissance as the outer limit of images projected onto a plane... The practical limit for an acceptable visual cone has historically been a 60° circle of view — a suggestion first made by Piero della Francesca in c.1470 and repeated often since then. In fact, depending on the geometry of the principal form and the location of the vanishing points, a 40° circle of view or less is much more typical. Leonardo da Vinci devoted many pages in his notebooks (c.1490) to the analysis of perspective distortions, and he especially disliked the exaggerated apparent size of the perspective grid as it reached the ground line of the image plane. He recommended painting an object as it appears from a distance of 3 to 10 times its actual dimensions. This is equivalent to placing the figure within a 19° to 6° circle of view. In fact, modern vision research has found that most people say an object "fills their field of view" once it occupies approximately a 20° circle of view; the classical French rule has been to contain the image within a 30° circle of view." I'm not sure about your "true shape" claim -- the individual buildings at the lower corner are surely much closer to their "true shape" in the panini than the rectilinear. Only a mathematician could love the "relationship" those buildings have with reality. -- Colin (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think it was far greater than 45 degrees, probably closer to 60 or 70. 45 degrees is quite conservative. I know rectilinear isn't the projection we see with our own eyes but it is the projection that we usually expect to see in a photograph - that's what I meant. I agree with you that the rectilinear projection has its share of problems relating to the distortion, but I generally prefer it as a projection because it preserves the relationship between objects slightly better and objects retain their true shape, albeit stretched along the plane. With the panini projection, objects become bent, and it gives the illusion that the angle of view is much narrower than it really is. This helps with distortion but comes with its own dishonesty. I accept that no projection is free of limitations though, and clearly I'm in the minority this time. Diliff (talk) 09:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Rectilinear is not the projection we see since our retina is not a plane, and it is only a classical choice for 2D works for small angle-of-view (Diliff you will remember from our discussions last year that the great renaissance artists discussed this and thought something round 45-degrees (if memory serves me) was reasonable -- hardly 100-degrees). Our eyes in fact only see accurately in a tiny centre area (as I know you know) and outside this area is very blurred and much constructed by the mind. Therefore I'd claim that the Panini in getting the accuracy right in small areas is far more representative of what we see than the Rectilinear which completely fails to get the accuracy right at the building-level. Neither projections are 100% accurate but the gross building-distortion in the rectilinear is far more dishonest imo. Looking again at the rectilinear, the road may be straight in one axis but the buildings actually look like they are tilting to fall off the bottom of the screen like some disaster movie. -- Colin (talk) 11:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I would agree with you if it were only a matter of taste, but we still have a responsibility to represent the subject accurately. I'm not saying rectilinear is more 'correct', but it is the projection that we usually expect to see and I think it is therefore the preferred projection except when excessive distortion makes it unpractical. I don't think the rectilinear distortion is enough that Panini projection is warranted, but that's just my opinion. Diliff (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support see above. — Julian H.✈ (talk/files) 22:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support Much better. -- Colin (talk) 11:09, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support per Colin. 😄 ArionEstar 😜 (talk) 12:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support Kruusamägi (talk) 22:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support Preferred. --King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:10, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support--ArildV (talk) 10:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Confirmed results:
This image will be added to the FP gallery: Places/Architecture/Cityscapes
The chosen alternative is: File:1 taipei sunrise panorama dxr edit pangen 141215 1.jpg