Category talk:Costumes
We should put the discussion here, it will be easier to find, and we should copy or link to the various discussions. Penyulap ☏
copied from my (Penyulap's) talkpage :
Regalia
[edit]Hi Pen, saw you at the debate over "costumes vs clothing." Just a heads up that when it comes to Native Americans, to call their traditional-style clothing a "costume" is really super offensive. Powwow dancers use the term "regalia." "Clothing" could cover the rest. To refine further is problematic, what makes something historic or traditional is probably edit war bait too. Just letting you know. (I'm not Native, but I live in a state with seven Indian reservations, so I have some knowledge of what gets people legitimately upset, anyway). What to do with white people dressing up to be Indians, that's a different problem. ([{Category: Non-native people pretending to dress up like Native people]]?) Smiles and hugs to you! Montanabw (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- thanks ! (smiles and hugz)
- Yes, well I saw your comment a moment ago, and that confirms what a few people have now, that my initial thoughts that 'costumes' could be derogatory are correct. Though, I guess the idea can be applied to any real people. Penyulap ☏ 20:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I suppose even things like someone dressing up like some other individual (thinking the rubber masks that look like various current or past presidents of the USA for example) carry with them the potential for mockery or satire, whimsy at the very least. Montanabw (talk) 21:24, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- I used to know Ernie Philip well. He may be still alive and I could phone him or his family for input. He was the best for many years.--Canoe1967 (talk) 04:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Well, consensus about "costume" seems to be to define a costume as something you wear when you are pretending to be something other than what you are. Thus, native clothing is NOT a "costume" because it is an expression of who that person actually IS. Canada and the USA have some different terminology. And calling someone you know is OR anyway. Also, one person from one cultural tradition may have different views than do other people in other traditions. (In other words, some people may have thrown up their hands on the "Indian costume" question or just don't care). However, if you want sources and evidence, I shall refer you to these few examples from multiple geographic areas (there are zillions more if you google): [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], some people consider wearing Native "costumes" to be as racist as white people wearing blackface, and examples, and even the Mardi Gras guys who dress like Indians (some of whom are, actually) don't like the term "costume". Montanabw (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- I used to know Ernie Philip well. He may be still alive and I could phone him or his family for input. He was the best for many years.--Canoe1967 (talk) 04:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. I suppose even things like someone dressing up like some other individual (thinking the rubber masks that look like various current or past presidents of the USA for example) carry with them the potential for mockery or satire, whimsy at the very least. Montanabw (talk) 21:24, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
We need to move this conversation to the logical place to find it which will be the talkpage of Category:Costumes I would think. I've altered that page a little, a few extra alternative categories should be linked to at the top, to make it easy to find the most popular alternatives. Penyulap ☏ 16:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- I think the discussion is actually happening at the Village Pump; maybe your suggestion should be placed there. Maybe all that's needed is just some explanatory text on the category page. Montanabw (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- I was thinking to leave both, and we can copy the most pertinent parts, like those examples you link to, onto the category talkpage. When the discussion at the VP is finished, we should add links to it onto the talkpage. It is important that everyone who has said something can be have their comments found easily in the future. Penyulap ☏ 17:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Interesting debate here, but the term 'ethnic' makes it worse, I think. Essentially ethnic means anything non-western; a pair of jeans is clothing, a sari or a sarong is 'ethnic' clothing? That could easily be offensive. What about the hijab of muslim women all over the world? My own subject is dance. See the problem? Putting on a costume to do a folkloric dance or a contemporary dance performance. I am not prenteding to be someone else as a dancer but I do call this clothing a costume, because I only wear it during a performance. Any thoughts? --Judithcomm (talk) 08:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
- a fair statement, I would have thought that 'ethnic' varies depending on your viewpoint, mine is not U.S. so it's not a problem for me. I think it is a problem if it appears derogatory to most readers though. What about alternatives, better ones. What about 'traditional' ? how does that sound to you ? Penyulap ☏ 10:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
- The http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:National_costumes is interesting, the way it has been defined. The best solution so far, I think. It also makes a distingtion between a sarong I wear at home and a sarong I wear on the stage. My own definition of costume would be: clothing warn for special occasions (not being ordinary events like going to the office or going out for dinner and a dance). Events can be a parade, halloween, a stag party, a play, a dance event. Problem then would be putting on a costume just for the fun of it or actors on the red carpet during film festivals, etc. Plus 'national costumes' could not be a subcategory of this. --Judithcomm (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)