Category talk:Benz Victoria

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Distinguishing two distinct models: the Benz Victoria and the Benz Vis-à-Vis

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@Buch-t, Eddaido, and Morio: (since Buch-t has access to some high-quality references on vintage automobiles, and all three of you have both been active recently and involved with automobile categorizing.)

(This is a long posting. Apologies, but I want to make solid arguments for my claims. Incidentally, yesterday I sent a somewhat similar message to the Mercedes-Benz Classic archives itself to ask for confirmation, but they haven't replied yet.)

After examining the images in the Benz Victoria category and other images of these cars online, including those available from the Mercedes-Benz Classic archives and the Daimler Global Media site, as well as checking several textual references from the 1890s, I think that we have confused two separate Benz models which Benz called the "Victoria" and the "Vis-à-Vis". This is largely because many museum exhibits have labeled Vis-à-Vis models as Victorias.

Basically, Benz produced two different models from 1893 to 1900 which had the same basic design but differed in their body shape, the "Victoria" and the "Vis-à-Vis".

The Victoria seems to have come first. It had permanent seating for two people, and an option was available at extra cost for a folding front seat which was positioned vis-à-vis style. Although Benz catalogs from that era aren't normally available online, I was lucky enough to find, in a Google Books result from Fünf Jahrtausende Radfahrzeuge, p. 316, a reproduction of an 1893 Benz catalog page for the Victoria which refers to this option costing 75 marks. (The option listing doesn't explicitly mention that the extra seat folds, but there are photos of the Victoria with it folded.)

The Vis-à-Vis may have come out several months later; I'm not exactly certain of the chronology. Unlike the Victoria, the Vis-à-Vis had permanent seating for four people in a vis-à-vis arrangement; the front seat was fixed in place. Although this model was related to the Victoria, it did not have "Victoria" in its name, just as the later "Phaeton", "Landauer", or "Break" models based on this design did not have "Victoria" in their names. This makes sense, since all these models seem to have been named for distinct, well-known styles of horse-drawn carriages. Their names were really body types.

I've actually found the Victoria and Vis-à-Vis models to be quite simple to tell apart, once I saw what to look for. The difference is in the front body. The Victoria's footwell has a curved bottom, and a slim, curving dashboard forms the footwell's front face. The optional front seat, if any, is attached to the top edge of this dashboard with hinges and, when in use, extends over the footwell, being supported by one or two props against the footwell bottom. It can also be folded down against the back of the dashboard. The Victoria's front body is rather similar in basic form to that of a Benz Velo.

The Vis-à-Vis, on the other hand, has a footwell with a flat bottom and angled flat faces to its front and rear. The supporting platform for the front seat extends from the top edge of the footwell's front face over the front axle, giving the Vis-à-Vis more legroom for four persons than the Victoria. The front seat's armrests and backrest are attached to a single continuous railing that wraps around the seat.

This distinction is confirmed by an article I found in both Google Books and HathiTrust, "Die Internationale Motorwagenausstellung zu Berlin 1899" in Dinglers Polytechnisches Journal, volume 314, issue 6 (11 November 1899), pages 88-92. The article gives a fairly detailed description of Benz's models, both those actually exhibited at the show and others produced by the company. The Victoria and Vis-à-Vis are described on page 91 in successive paragraphs numbered "3" and "4", with the Vis-à-Vis illustrated in Fig. 27 on page 90, and the Victoria (unintentionally) illustrated in Fig. 31 on page 91. (This illustration is supposed to be of the newly introduced Duc model, but the picture clearly shows a Victoria.) These descriptions differ in a few minor details from the examples I've seen (for example, the Vis-à-Vis here has doors, and the Victoria is mentioned as having a rear "servant seat"), but I assume these are either from later refinements of these models or from extra-cost options. A comment at the very end of the article notes that production of the Victoria has ended, while the Vis-à-Vis is an older model.

I've seen some sources that refer to the Victoria as the "Victoria Vis-à-Vis", especially when it's equipped with the folding front seat. I think that's a potentially confusing label, and I prefer to avoid it. I can't find any instance of it being used for a Benz automobile during the era when Benz sold the Victoria; in fact, I can find very few examples of it being used for any automobile. It basically combines two different body types, sort of like saying "sedan minivan". My guess is that it's a later invention.

More importantly, the label "Victoria Vis-à-Vis" seems to cause people to confuse the Benz Victoria with the Benz Vis-à-Vis. Because of the actual history of the two models, the "Victoria Vis-à-Vis" label is ambiguous; it can be interpreted either as "the Victoria with the optional vis-à-vis front seat" or as "the Vis-à-Vis model, a version of the Victoria", and it seems that different people have followed both of these interpretations. I've seen cases where a Vis-à-Vis model is called a "Victoria Vis-à-Vis", as well as cases where it's simply called a Victoria.

Images of the Victoria in Daimler's archives (most have the optional folding seat): [1] (duplicate: [2]), [3] (black-and-white duplicate: [4]), [5] (retouched duplicate: [6]), [7] (duplicate: [8]), [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] (duplicate: [14]), [15] (duplicate: [16]), [17], [18].

(Note that many, usually with the folding seat, but occasionally even without, are identified as a "Benz Victoria Vis-à-Vis"; I've already explained my reasons against this label.)

Images of the Vis-à-Vis in Daimler's archives: [19] (duplicate: [20]), [21] (duplicate: [22], an example of a Vis-à-Vis labeled as a "Victoria Vis-à-Vis"), [23], [24], [25], [26] (misidentified as a Victoria), [27] (Mueller-Benz), [28] (Mueller-Benz).

(The two "Mueller-Benz" images are of a vehicle which ran in an 1895 Chicago contest, a Benz Vis-à-Vis with some mechanical alterations done by Mueller.)

As I said, many museum exhibits have mislabeled Benz Vis-à-Vis exhibits as Benz Victorias. These include:

There's also one oddball, in the Technisches Museum Wien: [29]. The museum labels it as a "Victoria Vis-à-Vis" (it actually does look like a hybrid of the Victoria and Vis-à-Vis models!), but after digging further, I found out that it was originally built for Eugen Zardetti in 1893 as a three-wheeled Patent-Motorwagen and converted to a four-wheeled configuration in 1898, hence its unique appearance.

I have only been able to find two correctly labeled museum exhibits:

  • Deutsches Museum München Verkehrszentrum, which has a Benz Vis-à-Vis (image, containing page). Unfortunately, we have no photos of it.
  • National Technical Museum in Prague, which has a Benz Victoria (Flickr page). We have one photo which includes it, but unfortunately only at a distance. This is actually the very same Victoria which was driven on a long-distance journey by Baron Theodor von Liebieg in 1894. It's the only current museum exhibit I can find of a genuine Benz Victoria.

Many years ago, the former Daimler-Benz Museum had a Victoria of its own on display, visible in this photo from 1971 or 1972. From the distinctive shape of its headlamp crowns, I assume it's the same Victoria seen in this Daimler archive photo, but I don't know if Daimler still has the vehicle on display or even whether they still own it.

--Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 04:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CDH — That I find interesting. I am astounded at the breadth and depth of your research let alone the effort of just typing out all the above. In similar cases I have experienced strong resistance from the uploader on the basis that the museum concerned knows best. You have the advantage of being able to point to this research which I, for one, find convincing. More power to your metaphorical elbow. Very best wishes, Eddaido (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria?
Early Benz are difficult. Found in Benz & Cie. (Motorbuch Verlag): Der Benz Victoria war auch das Fahrzeug, aus dem zum ersten Mal eine ganze Typenfamilie entstand (heute würde man sie als Baureihe bezeichnen). Vis-à-Vis, Phaeton, Landaulet und der große Landauer sind die Typenvarianten der Baureihe "Victoria".
I found this picture. It is a Victoria? I have an own picture of this car, but not so good. I have more pictures of Vis-à-Vis, also from München. --Buch-t (talk) 17:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(for any other monoglot readers Google translate says: The Benz Victoria was also the vehicle from which for the first time a whole type family emerged (today they would be called a series). Vis-à-Vis, Phaeton, Landaulet and the large Landauer are the type variants of the series "Victoria".).
Does this conflict with the research above or does it confirm it? Eddaido (talk) 22:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think: Victoria and Vis-à-Vis had the same chassis and engines, different bodies, different names. Not found the full name "Victoria Vis-à-Vis" in my books. Please create a separate Category:Benz Vis-à-Vis.
What do you think about filename and categoryname for the de:Benz Patent-Motorwagen Nummer 3 from 1893, converted to 4 wheels for Zardetti in 1898, exhibited in Wien/Vienna? I have pictures. --Buch-t (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I took so long to reply to this. Things kept distracting me. Then my computer's window-server process crashed. I have way too many browser windows and tabs open, it's ridiculous. :D

I have created a new Category:Benz Vis-à-Vis, as you requested, Buch-t, and moved all the Vis-à-Vis images and subcategories into that, leaving only Victoria images in Category:Benz Victoria. Still have to rename the Vis-à-Vis images and subcategories themselves. Both categories also have a note mentioning the difference between the models and how they are sometimes confused. (Oh, by the way, yes, the photo you inserted above is a Victoria.)

The Zardetti vehicle is a special case. For now I've moved the image of its lantern (yes, right now the only image we have of it in the Wien museum is a lantern) up to Category:Benz automobiles, with a note in the English description about its unique history. Once there are more images, it will deserve its own subcategory; right now my preference would be to put this subcategory inside Category:Benz Patent Motorwagen, with a note describing the vehicle's nature. (We already have an image of that vehicle before its conversion; that could be placed in the new subcategory, too, giving a "before-and-after" perspective.) Perhaps Category:Benz Patent Motorwagen should itself be split into one category for the Model 1 (and maybe Model 2) prototypes (and their replicas), and a second for the Model 3 production version, with Zardetti's car as a subcategory of that second category.

As for naming files, I prefer names that are long enough to remove potential ambiguity; people read the names far more often than they type them, and the Wikimedia search interface has name completion anyway. For Zardetti's vehicle, perhaps names starting with "Patent-Motorwagen, Zardetti 4-wheel conversion" would be appropriate? Or something along those lines.

--Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 05:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just an update that I've renamed the subcategories of the Vis-à-Vis and flagged all the images for renaming, though only a fraction have been processed by filemovers yet. (I do understand that you'll be busy with other things during the week.) --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 09:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Everything's been renamed now. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
New pictures: File:Benz Victoria 1894.JPG, File:Benz Modell 3 1893 Umbau zum Vierrad 1898 (1).JPG, File:Benz Modell 3 1893 Umbau zum Vierrad 1898 (2).JPG. Now make the category.
Found for the Zardetti-Car: http://www.traumautoarchiv.de/html/7341.html --Buch-t (talk) 08:33, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Benz Phaeton Vis-à-Vis?

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https://digitaltmuseum.no/011024252804/bil

What it is? Same type family. Phaeton had 4 seats. Phaeton Vis-à-Vis or Phaeton Langversion with 6 seats. The opening to the rear seats is not fully identical to pictures of the 6-seater in the book. --Buch-t (talk) 08:33, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Colin Douglas Howell: Seen? --Buch-t (talk) 16:09, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Buch-t: Sorry, I did see that and meant to reply. I'm not sure what to call it, but I'm glad you found it, because it helps resolve my puzzlement about what Category:Benz 5hp Phaeton in the Louwman Museum really is. Although the Louwman Museum's machine isn't identical to the Norwegian one, its structure sure looks similar. The Louwman Museum calls it a "Phaeton":

https://www.louwmanmuseum.nl/Ontdekken/Ontdek-de-collectie/benz-5-hp-phaeton

but they also say it has 6 seats, and in their side view you can see the rear seats are mounted vis-à-vis fashion. So it can't be a normal 4-seat Phaeton either.

I hadn't heard the terms "Phaeton Vis-à-Vis" or "Phaeton Langversion" until you mentioned them. Do they refer to distinct types, or are you proposing alternative names for a single common type? I can't find any references to a "Phaeton Vis-à-Vis", but I did find one to a Phaeton Langversion on page 81 of Benz & Cie: Zum 150. Geburtstag von Karl Benz, published in 1994:

Das Phaeton war in der Lang-Version zehn Zentimeter länger, sozusagen der -SEL- der frühen Jahre. Der zusätzliche Platz wurde dazu benutzt, im Passagierabteil noch eine zusätzliche Sitzbank in der -Vis-à-Vis--Position unterzubringen. Es war Mk 200 teurer als das normale Phaeton. Die Preisliste verzeichnete dieselbe Motorisierung und interessanterweise auch dasselbe Gewicht von 850 Kilogramm wie beim normalen Phaeton.

Google Translate, with a little tweaking, gives:

The Phaeton was ten centimeters longer in the Lang-Version, so to speak, the "SEL" of the early years. The extra space was used to accommodate an extra seat in the passenger compartment in the vis-à-vis position. It was Mk 200 more expensive than the normal Phaeton. The price list showed the same engine and, interestingly, the same weight of 850 kilograms as the normal Phaeton.

In the absence of further information, I'd call both the Louwman Museum car and the Norwegian one the "Phaeton Langversion" (or "Lang-Version", whichever is more correct).

Do you understand some German?
I own and use this book.
Text to one picture without roof: Der -SEL- der frühen Jahre, das lange -Phaeton-.
Text to another picture with roof and curtains (I cannot see other differences): Ein -Phaeton Vis-à-Vis- mit Sonnendach.
In the normal text that what you wrote.
I agree to "Phaeton Langversion". For both cars. Both cars have one-cylinder-engines, according to the museums.
The book Deutsche Autos, Band 1, 1885-1920. cannot help to the very early Benz models. --Buch-t (talk) 07:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I would never claim to know German, but I can understand the captions you just quoted. I'd translate them as:
The "SEL" of the early years, the long "Phaeton".
A "Phaeton Vis-à-Vis" with canopy.
(For those who may not be familiar with the "SEL" reference, it was Mercedes-Benz's label for their long-wheelbase luxury sedans from the middle 1960s to the early 1990s.)
I'm not surprised that the captions are a bit inconsistent. Probably very few of these models were built, and Benz was a very new company then, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were a little inconsistent in what they called these particular cars. But it could also be a mistake of the author. Anyway, it seems best for us to be consistent, and "Phaeton Langversion" sounds less self-contradictory. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 06:46, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Benz Phaeton Langversion 1895 from Oslo - front view only
I have loaded the picture from Oslo. Please make the category. --Buch-t (talk) 09:10, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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