Category talk:COVID-19 pandemic by country

Move: COVID-19 pandemic

Why did someone move this category from 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic by country and territory to 2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory without discussing it. It makes no sense, as all other categories use coronavirus rather that COVID-19. Morris Schaffer (talk) 10:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Morris Schaffer: Because "coronavirus" is a misleading name, referring to the group virus and not the virus itself, and because COVID-19 is already the top cat, so I just standardized. You did a big mess here, with copy paste moves. Please stay quiet and don't mess up everything again.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 21:35, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Darwin: You should not do some big changes in a hot topic by yourself without discussing it first with the community. If there is anyone doing a mess here, it isn't @Morris Schaffer: . Sincerely, Nadzik (talk) 21:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nadzik: "Coronavirus" is a group of virus, the current name is misleading, nonsense and against the top categopry (which is not the one you pointed at, but the one above it). What was the point of reverting it back to a wrong name?-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 22:29, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nadzik: Please stop doing copypaste moves and messing up with the history of the category. If you want to move this somewhere else, please, at least do it the proper way.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 22:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Darwin: The point isn't what is the right name or what you think is right. The point is that you cannot change the name of 100+ categories in a hot topic such as ths one without consulting the community. All the naming standards were issued to follow the main category and you've decided by yourself that it was an appropriate action to change all of this. @Maire, Ankry, Yarl, Megaemce, and Boud: , care to weigh in? Sincerely, Nadzik (talk) 22:35, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nadzik: What "naming conventions"? The top cat here is COVID-19, the WHO is using COVID-19, so what are you talking about? It was your messed up copypaste revertions that were against the common procedures for naming and moving we usually follow here, I simply used the most reliable source and the usual standardization.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 22:40, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Wow, "messed up", it is real that all wikis have different standards. What do you refeer to when you say "copypaste revertions"? Nadzik (talk) 22:46, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nadzik: You were redirecting the category to another generated by copypaste, which does not preserves the history. That kind of category move generally is not allowed here.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 22:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

while working on my stuff I always look at the bigger and more wise/thoughtful projects like german version of my graphics. The Covid name seems more reasonable and it's used over there as well. @Nadzik: Megaemce (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Since Ankry decided to start a wheel-war reverting everything without even caring to take part on this discussion, I give up. Keep your "coronavirus" pandemic, which goes against the top category and what WHO is using to define the disease outbreak. Others would eventually fix that, in the future. I've more important stuff to take care than that right now.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 23:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I expect a consensus what is needed to be done prior to any changes are started. So reverting to the initial state, which may be incorrect and need fixing in a proper way. Ankry (talk) 23:14, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Any possibly controversial page moves (including category moves), especially when they affect big numbers of pages, have to achieve consensus first. If the reasons are overwhelmingly strong, then en:WP:SNOW will quickly lead to sufficient consensus.

What term should be used? In the main page on this topic in the en.Wikipedia, the justification for "coronavirus outbreak" in the title of the page was en:WP:COMMONNAME, based on very wide usage. Most people in the discussion agreed that the name was misleading, but preferred to follow en.Wikipedia policy. The switch to "pandemic" (I haven't looked at the move request) presumably followed the same reasoning. "COVID-19" is a lot better known today than when it was created/announced by WHO; but the continuing growth of the pandemic seems to have expanded the ambiguous "coronavirus" usage faster than that of "COVID-19". If I were the dictator of Commons and if I had time to work out how to make a consistent change without messing things up, I would happily change coronavirus pandemic to either SARS-CoV-2 pandemic or COVID-19 pandemic everywhere (I'm not quite sure between these two: the asymptomatic carriers (i.e. who do not have COVID-19, but are SARS-CoV-2 positive) who spread the infection unintentionally are surely as much a part of the pandemic as those with symptoms; but on the other hand, the overwhelming of medical services is mainly from those who are ill.

But I'm not the dictator of Commons, and I'm not even very familiar with category naming policy on Commons, and I'm only a little familiar with category naming policy on en.Wikipedia and fr.Wikipedia. If someone wants to make a name change that affects many pages, then make a clear proposal and see if consensus can be achieved.

Just to clarify: the initial en.Wikipedia decision for coronavirus outbreak for the title of the page did not, in my interpretation, imply that "coronavirus" on its own was valid in other contexts on the pages of the theme; a title for recognisability is not the same thing as prose text in the body of an article, in which intrawiki links can be used to help readers who don't know, for example, that 30% or so of common colds are caused by coronavirus infections. Boud (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ankry: and all. I think @DarwIn: is right here. The specific virus that is causing the panic is COVID-19, not another variant, so that should be specified. Given that this is an issue that is very topical, I think this should be adopted urgently, rather than waiting the usual year or so for consensus to form here. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I've started moving pages back to specify COVID-19, and hope that @DarwIn: can help do so again. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 is the disease not the virus (SARS-CoV-2), but that's not the point here... COVID-19 is IMHO better than coronavirus. I used the system I have found days ago because I wanted no discussion, but I never really like that generic title.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:13, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Alexmar983: Thanks, reading around the issue, it might be better to move to using "SARS-CoV-2" in the names, but 'COVID-19' is a step in the right direction, hopefully. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Mike Peel probably for the epidemic/pandemic using COVID-19 is slightly more correct. The SARS-CoV-2 virus might mutate and become more like influenza... who knows. Still the use of the virus name to me seems more related to the biological aspects, and COVID-19 is ok for categories related to politics, society etc. On the other hand, it might be like the Spanish flue, come back in winter and this reference to 2019 might soon become too much limiting in some way? I am no virologist or epidemiologist, so i am just guessing. In any case what I believe is that generic "coronavirus" is NOT the best option... it's doing already enough disaster when people are looking for information typing this generic name.--Alexmar983 (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello Mike Peel and Darwin, (I left a questionn at Category talk:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic...if you are moving categories without a Consensus.....at least you should decide between yourselves....one of you is changing to "Category:2019–20 coronavirus COVID-19 in South Korea" and the other is changing to "Category:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic in the United Kingdom"?--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: As things stand, go with "Category:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic in the United Kingdom". Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

So Mike Peel would you please correct the South Korea category, change you made?--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: Done, although it wasn't my change directly. Subcategories still need moving though. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: When replacing "coronavirus" with "COVID-19", "pandemic" was replaced by mistake, instead of "coronavirus". Nothing dramatic and easily fixable.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 00:27, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Oppose the name change to "2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory" until a consensus is reached. Basically, I think the name of categories here should conform with active Wikipedia articles. The matching article there is called "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic". Yes, they are debating changing the name again....but I think any changes here further confuses things. I really don't have a strong opinion what it is called....but as this is a very active Category right now each change is causing additional work....how about we take a breath and wait a little till the dust settles. (adding same comment to Category talk:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic)...Thanks all--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

How many wikipedias besides enwiki use coronavirus instead of COVID-19? in the languages written with Latin script the more precise title is actually preferred.--Alexmar983 (talk) 23:43, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I replied at Category talk:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic, we should probably merge these discussions together. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 23:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons has it's own rules, and does not follow wiki.en or any other Wikipedia. The proper name of the disease is COVID-19, not "coronavirus", which is something entirely different. If the wiki.en wants to keep using a wrong designation because it's popular (or used to be in the early times of the epidemic), that's their problem. This is not wiki.en.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 00:27, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I suggest renaming all the categories to simply "COVID-19 pandemic" (using "COVID-19" rather than "coronavirus", and removing years from the title), e.g., Category:COVID-19 pandemic, Category:COVID-19 pandemic in the United Kingdom, etc.. It's unnecessary to add years to the category name because COVID-19 is a very specific disease and there is no other pandemic for this disease. And by removing "2019–20" from the title, we can avoid (very likely) renaming all the categories to "2019–21" or "2019–22" in the future. --Neo-Jay (talk) 23:52, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like in some sources it is suggested that this pandemic might reach spring 2021. I also believe this is a possibility, so let's avoid years.--Alexmar983 (talk) 23:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

On the other hand, the disease can have further outbreaks and epidemics in different years, so not having any year there could be a problem as well.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 00:29, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 is defined as the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2. Viruses evolve quickly. If there is another coronavirus outbreak (or pandemic) several years later, it will be very likely caused by another virus strain and be named as something other than COVID-19. --Neo-Jay (talk) 00:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I put a note at Category talk:2019–20 COVID-19 pandemic directing the discussion to this page.

As I commented there, I contribute mainly to South Korean content, and have noticed that South Korean (English version) newspapers are referring to the virus as COVID-19.

And, replying to Darwin from your above comment - per my referral to the enwiki article's naming, granted your response, but it made me think of the use of English language here on Commons and why most Categories do reflect the enwiki choices. Also, as I share space here with active Korean editors, I hesitate to change the Korean language categories they sometimes add. But, Commons is written in English, as a common global language, so looking for a matching enwiki article's naming as guidance is a usual practice.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:58, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: Many of the names of the categories in Commons do not match at all the ones they use in English Wikipedia, even in small stuff. The kind of stuff like "South Korean writers" and "Writers from South Korea". Yes, Commons uses English as lingua franca, but unlike wiki.en, it has to accommodate people from all languages together. It's not an English project, it's international land. So, different projects, different rules. Links to Wiki.en policies and decisions like the ones presented by Boud and others above are totally pointless and generally ignored here. Who cares if something has a popular name in English, if it's generally known by another, more international designation in the rest of the world. Who cares if the folks at wiki.en have reached consensus to name something in a way. It's their stuff, and it only has value between the boundaries of wiki.en. We follow our own rules here.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 01:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

By removing years from the title, we not only avoid moving "2019–20" to "2019–21" in the future, but also avoid the dispute on whether "2019–20" or just "2020" should be used now. Technically speaking, this "pandemic", by definition (a disease epidemic that has spread across a large region, for instance multiple continents, or worldwide), started in 2020, not 2019, when it was just an "outbreak" (not even an "epidemic") in the city of Wuhan. And in most countries and territories, even the "outbreak" started in 2020, not 2019. So, in my view, moving all the categories to simply "COVID-19 pandemic" is a better choice. The year prefix is only necessary for a generic term like "coronavirus", and is unnecessary for the specific disease "COVID-19". --Neo-Jay (talk) 10:12, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I saw someone mention earlier that a discussion and consensus on this would take forever. Please don't hold up this renaming of categories on my part. It's better to finish them, then leave them partially done, at this point. The use of COVID-19 is acceptable to me, you guys can fight over adding the years or not. I'm just hoping it's a name we can stick with....more countries are onboard and the older images are currently sitting with old Descriptions of an "outbreak" (which it was, at the time), regardless the Categories say "pandemic", and that was an unavoidable change from WHO. I will strike through my bold "Oppose" above. I'll trust you all on this one, you guys are way out of my league in experience and time here on Commons.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 11:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Opposed the original move, and now that it has been moved by overly keen/disptuptive editors I support moving it back to 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic. Coronavirus is the common name, not COVID-19. People on the streets are not going around talking about "COVID-19", and there is precedent for using the common name for such pandemics e.g. the 2009 flu pandemic and Spanish flu, which are listed under those name in Wikipedia and on Commons, and not the "2009 H1N1 outbreak" etc. Elshad (talk) 22:01, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I was not going to cast a vote, I just kind of acquiesced. But I'm now wondering why the lack of response to Elshad from those that wanted to rename the categories (and have already moved many). I am less concerned with the correct name at this point, and more concerned with the decision being at an impasse and the total disarray it has caused. If this is the way Commons works (since at least one person in this discussion has disparaged Wikipedia protocol), then I may be starting to regret that I have spent some effort here. And on the contrary to that commenter's thoughts, I have contributed here with the mindset that Commons is integral to Wikipedia and not a separate entity that follows its own rules.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 12:55, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

And the latest craziness in all of this is that an IP user: 2408:8215:1C01:A58:84F3:23B8:748:17D0, has just moved most of the remaining countries to the new name. Please, thoee of you who were for the move, feel free to pat yourselves on the back.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 13:13, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@DarwIn and Mike Peel: Could we finish this discussion as soon as possible? 2408:8215:1C01:A58:84F3:23B8:748:17D0 is renaming lots of, maybe all of the COVID-19 categories by cut and paste now. Such acts should be stopped and fixed. --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is getting very crowded and hard to manage now. I propose to hold a vote below this, where everyone can vote by bold text on their preferred option, and a brief reason, without clogging it up with too much discussion. That way we can get an idea of the numbers and consensus etc. I'll start:

• Move to 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic, for consistency with Wikipedia and to use the common name as with other pandemics etc. Elshad (talk) 16:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• 1. We do not need to follow English Wikipedia. 2. Using "2019–20" as a prefix will very likely force us in the near future to move all the categories to "2019–21" and update all the relevant files' categories and Wikidata items' statement "Commons category" (P373), which will be a disaster. 3. It's controversial whether "2019–20" or just "2020" should be used now (The "pandemic", by definition, started in 2020, not 2019, when it was just an "outbreak" in the city of Wuhan. And in most countries and territories, even the "outbreak" started in 2020, not 2019. On English Wikipedia, some articles and categories use "2019–20", and many others use simply "2020"). So I support moving all the categories to COVID-19 pandemic (without the year prefix) for accuracy and simplicity. --Neo-Jay (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay, Mike Peel, and Alexmar983: Hello, I agree with you and others, with the suggestion of moving to "COVID-19 pandemic", without the years, per the arguments you stated. Consistence with wiki.en is irrelevant to Commons, and arguments based on that should be ignored. The purpose of informing people correctly is way above "popularity" arguments. Using "Coronavirus epidemic" instead of COVID-19 is akin to using HIV instead of AIDS. It's even worst: It's like using "retrovirus" instead of AIDS. It's wrong, it's misleading, it propagates disinformation. If wiki.en wants to keep it that way, that's their problem.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 20:08, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay: I've now blocked 2408:8215:1C01:A58:84F3:23B8:748:17D0 for vandalism, but I'm not sure I'll be able to revert all teh damage he has done. Please ping me here as soon as you notice other vandals doing the same thing, they will be blocked on sight.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 20:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@DarwIn: Thank you! --Neo-Jay (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@DarwIn: Please block 2408:8215:1C01:1D3:84F3:23B8:748:17D0, who is renaming COVID-19 categories by cut and paste now. And I think that we may close the discussion and start to move categories. --Neo-Jay (talk) 11:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your good work Neo-Jay on reverting the bad edits by the above two IP editors, and sorry no one has responded to you. i am just a low-level editor and don't know how to resolve this. What to do now?--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: If no one opposes it in the next 24 hours, I guess that we may start to move the categories to "COVID-19 pandemic" (without the year prefix). --Neo-Jay (talk) 19:00, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay: I apologize for coming late, I've been mostly offwiki due to damn Covid-19 (we're on State of Emergency now in Portugal). Hope to be more time around now, so I'll probably be able to help.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 21:09, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@DarwIn: Thank you! What time do you think we may close the discussion and move the categories? Wish you well in Portugal. Take care.--Neo-Jay (talk) 21:39, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay: I believe there is already enough time for any sound objection to be expressed, so it can probably be closed and executed.-- Darwin ^Ahoy! 21:41, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@DarwIn: Good! I will start to move the categories to "COVID-19 pandemic" (without the year prefix). --Neo-Jay (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay: perfect! -- Darwin ^Ahoy! 21:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay and DarwIn: : First batch ran through COM:CDC. And we have more steps to go. We have many many subcategories to check and categories for maps, diagrams, and et cetera. – Kwj2772 (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

@Kwj2772: Thank you so much! --Neo-Jay (talk) 20:04, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 pandemic - pandemics are named after diseases, not a viruses, aren't they? This is not enWP Bibliotaker (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

@Neo-Jay, DarwIn, and Steinsplitter: So, take a look at Category:Maps about the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in Afghanistan and Category:Maps about the COVID-19 pandemic in Afghanistan -- not to mention a half-dozen similar cases you can find listed near the top of User:RussBot/category redirect log. This is what happens when you mess up the history of a category by copying and pasting. --R'n'B (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@R'n'B: People are requesting those changes via COM:CDC. If the category does not exist then it being moved and otherwise replaced (copy&past). I do not check request placet ad the aforementioned page by hand. You have to contact the user who requested the rename. --Steinsplitter (talk) 13:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@R'n'B: I saw your message just now (I failed to receive an alert because you did not put my correct user name in Template:Ping). Sorry for my late reply. It was User:CommonsDelinker/commands (COM:CDC), not I, who messed up the history of those categories by copying and pasting. If you check my edit history, you will find that I do not move a page by copying and pasting, and have fixed lots of copying-and-pasting moves (see, e.g., this, this, and this). Thanks for your understanding. --Neo-Jay (talk) 02:31, 6 April 2020 (UTC)