File talk:Venezuela president recognition map.svg

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Renaming declined

NoonIcarus requested that this file be renamed as File:Venezuela president recognition map 2020.svg. I declined this because there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus that this file should represent any particular date. It can't have been the intention of the original uploader in 2018, and as far as I can see the updates since then have not suggested any particular end date. English Wikipedia labels the map "as of January 2020", but Spanish Wikipedia doesn't state any particular date. I would suggest that anyone who wants a date-specific version should upload a copy of the file under a suitable name rather than renaming this one. --bjh21 (talk) 21:32, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@Bjh21: Thanks for the message. In the English Wikipedia there's also the label for January 2021 in the en:Responses to the Venezuelan presidential crisis article. What I fear the most is the lack of consistency in this label, and I thought that having a fixed point in time could help with this, but naturally there can be further discussion on how to handle this. Best regards. --NoonIcarus (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Honduras

Honduras should be Neutral/Grey because it restored relations with the Maduro government under Xiaomera Castro, having previously supported Juan Guaido. Could the map be updated please? — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 2A02:C7E:1428:5300:219C:6938:96E8:EB78 (talk) 18:36, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The country was downngraded to light blue considering the latest election, like it was done with Argentina under similar circumstances. Best regards. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Honduras and Peru / Dominican Republic and Panama

Honduras and Peru restored relations with Maduro government, they should be red. Dominican Republic and Panama are officially neutral.Merchancano (talk) 05:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done -- David C. S. 19:59, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The changes are not related to recognition, let alone the results of the presidential elections. --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:02, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

David C. S.

Algeria and Azerbaijan

@David C. S.: You have insisted in the addition of countries such as Algeria and Azerbaijan to the map, despite being pointed out that your changes consist in original research and that the references that you have included are mostly regarding diplomatic visits and are unrelated to presidential recognition; this is an issue that has been discussed in the Spanish Wikipedia, meaning that you aware this, so I ask you once again to please stop. NoonIcarus (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@David C. S.: Como se ha explicado en resúmenes de edición previos o en la Wikipedia en español: la referencia Vozpópuli no hace mención ninguna al reconocimiento de España de Maduro, mucho menos a apoyo durante la crisis presidencial; sólo hace referencia a representantes diplomáticos. Como ha sido en el caso de Guaidó, la designación de embajadores u otros representantes diplomáticos no ha sido usado como convención de reconocimiento, sobre todo cuando dichos representantes pueden tener nombres diferentes a los de embajador, como encargado de negocios. En cuanto a Argentina, la situación es similar y una de sus últimos pronunciamientos con respecto a la crisis presidencial fue su posición frente a la elección de la Asamblea Nacional en 2020, donde condenan los ataques al cuerpo legislativo aunque no se unieran al comunicado del grupo de Lima.

Estos son puntos que se han tocado en la Wikipedia en español y en diferentes resúmenes de edición, por lo que ya estás al tanto de que ha habido oposición al cambio, y ya existe una denuncia abierta por guerra de ediciones. La regla de mantener la última versión ante de la disputa editorial es universal y aplica para todos: yo mismo en mi última propuesta restauré la versión original luego de que hubiese oposición ante la misma. Te pido encarecidamente que por favor autoreviertas tu edición por estos motivos. --NoonIcarus (talk) 14:56, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

As explained in previous edition summaries or in the Spanish Wikipedia: the Vozpópuli reference makes no mention whatsoever of Spain's recognition of Maduro, much less support during the presidential crisis; it only refers to diplomatic representatives. As it has been in the case of Guaidó, the designation of ambassadors or other diplomatic representatives has not been used as a convention of recognition, especially when such representatives may have names other than ambassador, such as chargé d'affaires. As for Argentina, the situation is similar and one of their last pronouncements regarding the presidential crisis was their position before the election of the National Assembly in 2020, where they condemn the attacks to the legislative body although they did not join the communiqué of the Lima group.
These are points that have been covered on in the Spanish Wikipedia and in different edit summaries, so you are already aware that there has been opposition to the change, and there is already an open complaint for edit war. The rule of keeping the last version before the editorial dispute is universal and applies to everyone: I myself in my last proposal restored the original version after there was opposition to it. I urge you to please self-revert your edition for these reasons.

translator: Translator: --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Spain, Peru, Argentina and others

@David C. S.: Once again, you have ignored my messages and changed the colors of not only Honduras and Colombia, which have been discussed in this talk page and in other projects, but also in Spain, Peru and Argentina, whose changes have not been explained in the edit summary. The insistence to make these changes despite opposition is disruptive. Please stop. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

@David C. S.: He dejado el color de Colombia y de Bolivia porque los eventos en desarrollo señalan que consisten en visitas de otros mandatarios a Venezuela, y he sugerido que esa sea un posible punto medio. Sin embargo, ya has intentado agregar a Argelia en el pasado, y las fuentes que ofreces sólo señalan de una visita de Maduro al país, una convención que ya ha sido rechazado antes.

Te pido que no insistas en imponer estas versiones. Ya tienes una versión propia del archivo y ya has sido bloqueado por revertir constantemente en este mapa, por lo que en caso de continuar reportaré directamente el comportamiento. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I have left the color of Colombia and Bolivia because the unfolding events point to them consisting of visits by other heads of state to Venezuela, and I have suggested that that is a possible middle ground. However, you have already tried to add Algeria in the past, and the sources you offer only point to a Maduro visit to the country, a convention that has been rejected before. I ask you not to insist on imposing these versions. You already have your own version of the file and you have already been blocked for constantly reverting on this map, so should you continue I will report the behavior directly.

translator: --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

"Ya tienes una versión propia del archivo", archivo al cual has intentado censurar y lo quitas de todos lados, porque no es de tu agrado... no puedes ser más sinvergüenza. Denúnciame todo lo que quieras, ya lo has hecho mil veces, es parte de tu estrategia para bloquer cualquier cambio al status quo, que has impuesto al archivo y a todo el tema en general. Si realmente se juzgara el tema con imparcialidad, sin duda alguna que te quitarían el monopolio que has impuesto sobre el temma en toda la comunidad de Wikimedia. [1], [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by David C. S. (talk • contribs)

"You already have your own version of the file", file which you have tried to censor and you remove it from everywhere, because it is not to your liking... you can't be more shameless. Denounce me all you want, you have already done it a thousand times, it is part of your strategy to block any change to the status quo, which you have imposed on the file and the whole subject in general. If the topic were really judged fairly, you would undoubtedly be stripped of the monopoly you have imposed on the topic on the entire Wikimedia community. [3], [4]

translator: --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Update

As the last sections have shown, recent elections in Latin America and time have meant important changes regarding the international positions on the Venezuelan crisis. I have updated several countries in the map accordingly and I would like to explain said changes. Before starting, the first thing that I want to bring into attention was the convention used for defining support for Maduro in 2019, when the crisis first started: factors included explicit opposition to sanctions issued against Venezuela and rejection for interference. Russia ([5]) and China ([6]) can be seen as examples for this. Additionally, several of these countries had previously recognized the 2018 presidential election results, where Maduro was declared winner. This is a far cry from the last changes of countries into red, based only on restoration of diplomatic relations or diplomatic appointments. The labels have been based in support and not only mere recognition. That being said, the following nations had their colors changed:

• Bolivia: Changed from      to     . After Luis Arce was elected as president, the government restored relations with the Maduro government, broke off in the previous administration, although it invited Juan Guaidó to its inauguration ([7]), and I have not found any pronouncements regarding Guaidó or the presidential crisis, returing to the status quo before the crisis.
• Chile: Changed from      to     . After Gabriel Boric was elected as president, its new foreign minister, Antonia Urrejola, has declared "Chile recognized Juan Guaidó when he was president of the Assembly; he is no longer president. We understand that the president of Venezuela is Nicolás Maduro, beyond the various condemnations of international human rights bodies and the High Commissioner, which the president [Boric] himself has said he shares." ([8])
• Colombia: Changed from      to     . After Gustavo Petro was elected as president, the government restored relations with the Maduro government, broke off in the previous administration. He described Juan Guaidó as a "non-existent" Venezuelan president. ([9])
• Dominican Republic: Changed from      to     . In 2021, the Dominican Republic Minister of Foreign Affairs declared that the country did not recognize Guaidó as interim president, while not recognizing Maduro either. ([10])
• Honduras: Changed from      to     . After Xiomara García was elected as president, the government restored relations with the Maduro government, broke off in the previous administration, and I have not found any pronouncements regarding Guaidó or the presidential crisis, returing to the status quo before the crisis.
• Panama: Changed from      to     . After being elected as president, Laurentino Cortizo has described Juan Guaidó as "president", which was the same position of the previous administration. ([11])
• Mexico: Changed from      to     . After Andrés Manuel López Obrador was elected as president, a government spokesman declared: "We maintain a position of neutrality and non-intervention in the Venezuelan conflict (...) in general, Mexico's position is to seek or promote and demand a dialogue with the parties in the case of the internal Venezuelan conflict." ([12])

I have also colored Western Sahara as part of Morocco, since the convention has also been to avoid states with limited recognition in the map, including Kosovo. I invite any new and interested editors to take a look at the thorough discussions at the English Wikipedia (en:Talk:Responses to the Venezuelan presidential crisis), as well as the Spanish one (es:Discusión:Crisis presidencial de Venezuela). I'd be glad to answer any concerns. Best regards! NoonIcarus (talk) 18:19, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Bolivia and Panama

Bolivia should be red because it recognises Maduro as president. Guaido was invited to Arce's inauguration because the foreign minister who invited Guaido to Arce's inauguration was under Jeanine Anez's government whom had recognised Guaido as president.

Panama should be grey because although Laurentino Cortizo did indeed describe Guaido as president initially - in January 2021, the Panama government withdrew Juan Guaido's credentials, but still has not recognised Maduro as president Lorgadh (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you have sources demonstrating that Bolivia recognizes Maduro? The reason why I said that Arce invited Guaidó to its inauguration is included in the source I cited: these invitations are made in consultation between the outgoing and incoming government, meaning that Arce reportedly would have agreed with Guaidó's invitation.

Likewise, one of the issues with using only the state of diplomatic relations as a convention is because, in some cases, they were already severed before the crisis, were cut off by Maduro or, in some cases, countries that recognized Guaidó did not sever relations at all. This is an issue that was discussed in the Spanish Wikipedia (es:Discusión:Crisis presidencial de Venezuela#Convención de reconocimiento), and more explicit political statements should probably be used, just like in 2019. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Bahamas

I have changed Bahamas from      to     . After supporting Guaidó in 2019, this year Bahamas promoted a vote in the OAS to dismiss Guaidó's envoy in the organization. ([13]) --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Under Support Maduro

Missing: Mali and the United Arab Emirates

--- MaliMail (talk) 15:58, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

and the Nakchivan Exclave should be red because that is just part of Azerbaijan

-- MaliMail (talk) 15:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@MaliMail: Hi! Kind regards. Do you have sources regarding this? --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responses_to_the_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#Recognition_of_Maduro_presidency MaliMail (talk) 00:42, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Mali

https://mppre.gob.ve/2023/03/17/instalado-ginebra-grupo-amigos-defensa-carta-onu/

UAE

https://www.swissinfo.ch/spa/venezuela-emiratos_el-presidente-de-emiratos-árabes-unidos-recibe-a-la-vicepresidenta-venezolana/48071696 MaliMail (talk) 16:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@MaliMail: Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. This has similar issues as File talk:Venezuela president recognition map.svg#David C. S., since the sources do not mention presidential recognition, but rather diplomatic visits. Kind regards, --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2023 (UTC)