File talk:Sunigajła (Siamion Sapieha). Сунігайла (Сямён Сапега) (1709).jpg

The name Sunigajła (Belarusian: Сунігайла, Sunigajła, Latin: Sunigaylo, Sunigail, Sungalo, Sunigajlo) is already provided in the current file name, so there is no need in renaming. Moreover, according to pl:Maria Kałamajska-Saeed (Genealogia przez obrazy. Barokowa ikonografia rodu Sapiehów na tle staropolskich galerii portretowych. Warszawa, 2006. S. 126) in this portrait «Sunigajła Punigajłavič (not Jan/Johannes) = Siamion Sapieha», so there is no obvious error in the filename and the request does not follow the official guideline on Wikimedia Commons. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Latin metrics of the painting reads "(This is) Sungaila(Sunigaylo), castelan of Trakai (castellanus Trocensis) son of Punigaila (Punigaylonis filius) ... called Simeon". lt:Jonas Sungaila was a Lithuanian nobleman, Castellan of en:Trakai, son of Punigaila with the coat of arms Lis. Nowhere in the historic sources he is called Sapiega, Sapieha, Сапега. He did not bear Sapiega surname for sure, since Sapiega family didn't exist (even more so it didn't exist in Trakai) at that time as a house and first Sapiegas are from en:Smolensk, not Trakai. Simeon Sungaila, castellan of Trakai didn't exist at all - it is a mythical person from which house of Sapiega started their invented geneology, taking his coat of arms Lis by mistakenly taking Jonas Sungaila castelan of Trakai (who had no sons) as Simeon castelan of Trakai .
First real Sapiega is Simeon Sapiega (Semen Sopiha) (not the castellan of Trakai, definitely not the son of Punigaylo, but completelly different person who had name of Simeon!!!) who served in the chancery of en:Casimir IV Jagiellon as scribe and left two sons pl:Bohdan Semenowicz Sapieha and pl:Iwan Semenowicz Sapieha starting Sapiega dynasty. That is why the current huge mistakes in the file name create a huge mess by calling Sungaila as Sapieha, which he never was and mistakenly placing images of Sungaila into wrong places. -- Ke an (talk) 18:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

This imaginary portrait comes from the Sapieha's portrait gallery. This fact indicates that the Sapieha's court painter intended to depict a representative of Sapieha family. That's why the reliable source I referenced provides for this portrait both Sunigajła and Siamion Sapieha names. So the portrait could depict any of them and Siamion Sapieha is more likely option despite the mistaken Latin caption. That is the meaning of the current filename. And it comes from the reliable source. Moreover, according to the source, Siamion Sapieha could be depicted as Pugajła in the other portrait painting. So there are no obvious errors and, accordingly, no reasons for renaming. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 19:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Your interpretations are wrong historically and genealogically, please present the facts. Sungaila, castelan of Trakai never was Sapiega, nor did it have any genealogicall connections with Sapiega house, which appeared much later from Russian branch from completely geographically and ethnically different place - Smolensk. Even if Sungaila was a starter of Sapiega house as a father he couldn't be named Sapiega, because he wasn't. For the same reason en:Algirdas cannot be named a ruler from en:Jagiellonian dynasty just because he was a father of en:Jogaila. Instead of pushing your errors and falsifications further please explain the errors you claim you found in Latin inscription. -- Ke an (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

That's not my interpretations, such caption for this portrait (both Sunigajła and Siamion Sapieha) is provided by the most prominent researcher of Sapieha ikonography — art historian Maria Kałamajska-Saeed, who described this portrait as well as other portraits of Sapieha family in her work Genealogia przez obrazy (Warszawa, 2006). In order to challenge her claim you should provide a reference to a work of another art historian with reasoned denial of possible depicting of Siamion Sapieha as Sunigajła. And as far as I know, there are no such works. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Please provide exact quote instead of referring to some authority. What do you mean the portrait of "both" persons?? And to which Simeon Sapiega the source or you refer?? -- Ke an (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

An exact quote from the mentioned work (p. 125): Protopasta rodu Sapiehów występuje w galerii dwukrotnie: raz z imieniem Punigajlo, za drugim razem jako Sunigajlo, choć w istocie chodzi o jedną osobę, historycznego Semena Sopihę - ojca Bohdana i Iwaszki. English translation (just in case): The progenitor of the Sapieha family appears in the gallery twice: once with the name Puigajła, the second time as Sunigajła, although in fact it is about one person, the historical Siamion Sapieha - the father of Bahdan and Ivan. So it's pretty clear that there is no error in the filename, as I said. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. You misunderstood the text. Sapiega family derived themselves from Sungaila or from his father Punigaila (even further down to Gediminds). Both connections are mythical. As the author correctly states and I mentioned previously - Simeon Sapieha (the scribe of en:Casimir IV Jagiellon) - the father of Bahdan and Ivan (pl:Bohdan Semenowicz Sapieha and pl:Iwan Semenowicz Sapieha) was the real (historic) progenitor of Sapiega dynasty. And the author doesn't state that Sungailo in the portret is Siamion Sapieha. So the error in file naming appears from your misunderstanding of the caption and history. According to Historia domus Sapiehianae their progenitor was a mythical son of Sunigaylo, so how portrait of Sunigaylo can be a protrait of his son?? You create a huge mess by misunderstanding the portrait attribution here. -- Ke an (talk) 21:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, your understanding is mistaken. The author provided the following names for the portraits descriptions: Punigajło Narymundowicz = Semen Sopiha (p. 124) and Sunigajlo Punigajłowicz = Semen Sopiha (p. 125). That's the exact quotes. Anyway, to remove any room for doubt I refer to another author's work Dom Sapieżyński cz. 2 Ikonografia (Warszawa, 2008). An exact quote from the work (p. 19): Semen Sopiha — pierwszy historycznie potwierdzony reprezentant rodu, przez heraldyków z w. XVI utożsamiony z kasztelanem trockim Sunigajłą (bądź Punigajłą) <...>. Imaginacyjne portrety obu wcieleń tej postaci: jako Sunigajło / jako Punigajło. English translation: Siamion Sapieha - the first historically confirmed representative of the family, identified by the heraldists of the 16th century with the Troki castellan Sunigajła (or Punigajła) <...>. Imaginary portraits of both incarnations of this character: as Sunigajła / as Punigajła (scan). --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)