File talk:Presidential Standard of Austria (-1984).svg

Hallo Greentubing, den von Ihnen so bezeichneten "Stander des österreichischen Bundespräsidenten" gibt es in der Form nicht. Wenn der Bundespräsident mit Standarte fährt, dann mit einer kleinen österreichischen Fahne mit Bundesadler. Bitte entfernen Sie dieses Stander von den zahlreichen Seiten, in den sie ihn eingebaut haben. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 10:29, 24 March 2010 DonDiego55 (talk • contribs)

English: (approximate translation): ... does not exist, in this style. If Austrian's federal president would use a standard, it would be something like thisone. Please remove the image from all those [wiki-] pages where it exists, as of now.

Absolutely agree: This is either bullshit created by an ignorant person, or an extremely bad joke. [w.] 12:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Similar, from private talk page.

Let's please continue our talk here, if needed. [w.] 08:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

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The flag is not a hoax. It is described as the "Standard for a Member of the Federal Government or the Federal President (Stander für ein Mitglied der Bundesregierung oder den Herrn Bundespräsidenten)" on the web page for the Austrian Federal Ministry for National Defence, and apparently has been used on two patrol vessels of the Danube flotilla of the Austrian Military. Regards, Fry1989 (talk) 19:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

In this case, I'd feel extremely sorry and have to apologize. I never-ever saw thisone style, last 60 years, and I am still uncertain whether there even might be an error on the official page. This square-type standard anyways is, IMO, over- or mis-represented in wikipedias: There is no real 'Danube flotilla' for quite a while (to be precise, since 2006-01-16 when the last two of these boats, "Niederösterreich" and "Oberst Brecht", were taken out of office.)

I also did not find any source mentionned on occasion of any of your uploads of this style (on this, see later note, below). Would you be as kind as to note the precise link, where you found it / where anyone could check it, on the relevant file's talk page? I think we should move further talks to this 'better' place.

Thanks, Wolfgang, from Vienna, Austria.

(Note that today is Austria's National holiday, and I obviously was over-emotional, yesterday, especially after having found out that the up-to-then only available and technically poor picture of Austria's most-beloved and honourable federal president EVER, Category:Rudolf Kirchschläger shows him in talk with more-than-dubious Romanian en:Nicolae Ceauşescu. [This applies to most wikipedia projects BUT enWP, where 'Fair Use' is allowed. Austrian officials which I approached on this issue were too narrow-minded to 'react' adequately, up to now.])

Sorry again, [w.] 08:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Source is found, meanwhile: http://www.bmlv.gv.at/abzeichen/dekorationen.shtml (bottom, right) [w.] 11:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

(Moved from my private page, now.)

[w.] 08:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It's alright. I understand that the Danube Flotilla was disbanded some time ago, however according to the discription, it's used in all the military, not just the Marine (this is similar to the Presidential flag of Romania, also only used at military occasions). The page on the Ministry of Defence website describing the flag appears to no longer exist, however that there was a link to it shows that it did at one time. I'm planning on contacting them via the contact us section of the website to see if the flag is still in use. If it is no longer, I'll request it be renamed with the date of use in the name. regards Fry1989 (talk) 00:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I try to find out about actual usage, since 2days, too, but officially approved answers are sometimes "slow" -- or never come at all. Until then, I'd say it will be better to abstain from more changes. Anyone "in doubt" might have a look on this talk page, and try to do better, if possible. I would BTW not wonder if they'd give an answer sooner to a foreigner than to an Austrian ;))

1. On renaming the file, some day, I'd propose the file to be called something like "Standard of...".
2. Note that this standard's size is mentionned to be 100cm×100cm, which makes it unlikely to be ever used on any other vehicles but boats, and anyways just in case the president or other very high-ranked official person would be on board; given the size&'importance' of former 'Austrian Danube flotilla', this would not have happened but VERY rarely ;).
3. Please note as well that I made minor improvements on my first arguments, above, on 28 October, as they were not yet answered; it therefore is not exactly the same text you answered on my private talk page.
4. At last (partially off-topic), it IMO seems to be highly preferable to replace the "flag" symbol in template:PD-AustrianGov by our national flag (without eagle!) instead of using government's flag ("Dienstflagge") which is only allowed for official purposes, down to patrol boats of the police. Unfortunately, nobody seems to care that "Dienstflagge" is produced, and bought by tourists, in large numbers as a souvenir. Nevertheless, misuse of Austrian flags might be charged as much as ~USD_2.500!!! (in theory, due to some legal act -- I, for myself, am not aware of any evidence where such happened, but I am not an attorney ;)))

In fact, as of today, this country has more serious troubles than this issue ;]]]

Best, Wolfgang [w.] 08:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I've read over this. First, the Flag of the President and other high officials. IDK what we can do until we get an official response regarding it, but once we do, we can take the appropriate action, including renaming it with a date of use. I still plan on contacting the Austrian Government as soon as I can. However, since you have found a source on the Bundesheer website, we do now know for certain that the flag does exist. As for the template:PD-AustrianGov, I don't know whether or not we should change it. One could argue that as the State or "Dienstflagge", it should be used in that template because the copyright law is an organ on the Austrian Government. However, I agree at the same time that the use of the State flag instead of the Civil flag is often restricted. I'm not sure which way I'm leaning though. Fry1989 (talk) 01:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You are not_wrong (to put it in "an_Austrian" way). I really think there would be little damage to information whilst waiting for hopefully official 'response'.
Best, [w.] 19:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

PLEASE DON'T USE THISONE ANY MORE!!!

According to recent official answer, such 'standard' does FOR_SURE not legally exist since some Austrian law of 1984-03-28. It is, at least since then, to be replaced by http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/a/ac/20101025194650!Flag_of_the_President_of_Austria.svg

-- on possible earlier usage, conversation with officials is to be continued.

As of now, I'm checking out whether I'd be allowed to forward any/which mail, on this issue.

[w.] 17:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, we now have a conflict, since it is still shown on the Bundesheer's website. It deffinately did exist at one time, that is clear. So we just have to find out if it still is and someone at the Government is confused, or it is no longer, and we'll rename the file with a date of use. Fry1989 (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The 'conflict' seems less than relevant: As of 1984-03-28, this "style" could FOR_SURE not be in use for any Austrian federal presidents, according president-office@hofburg.at 's message Zahl S120000/88-BS/2010 from 15. November 2010 17:29' (local time, I suppose).

I therefore suggest to reset the file to "my" former version, and I'm going to do so, soon.

As soon as there is more detailed information (which however might be difficult to obtain), one might anyways replace thisone "Standard" in [FEW!!!] WP articles, being renamed/re-uploaded.

Best, Wolfgang, [w.] 15:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you cannot upload a completely different flag over this file, so I'm going to revert. What we will do is rename it as "pre-1984" after we have all the details. What I will do is add a disclaimer saying the current status of this flag is in question for the time being. I still think there is a conflict problem, since the internet didn't even exist in 1984, and yet the Bundesheer website does show the flag. I also think we should contact the Bundesheer on their website, as there could be a confusion between them and the Government. Fry1989 (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I have now contacted the Bundesheer, and also given them a link to their page that shows the flag. It's possible someone was confused and it still is used, OR it is not and they overlooked taking it off the webpage. Either way we will find out. Fry1989 (talk) 19:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Beloved Fry~, the flag which is "implanted" in almost all articles on Austrian presidents is FOR_SURE_NOT_IN_USE since, at least, 1987, and I meanwhile am allowed to forward the message from Austrian president's office, on this issue.

IMNSVHO, it was the least possible inconvenience to replace the file (a standard hardly ever used at all), instead of uploading another item [anyways already existing on COM!] and trying to replace it in dozens of articles.

Best, [w.] 13:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

To [w.]: if this is indeed a historical flag, it needs be kept as a file however and not uploaded with another image. It could also be that the flag is indeed used, however only for military occasions as commander-in-chief of the armed forces. Just because it is not seen in public does not mean it does not exist. Gryffindor (talk) 16:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

W. with the greatest respect, you simply can not upload a completely different flag over another. We already have the State flag of Austria, and if you wish, we can start replacing this file with it (I have the time to do it myself). But this flag deffinately does(did) exist, and replacing it with the State flag will not do(for several reasons, including duplication, and that it is not a presidential flag, but the State(government) flag non-exclusive to the President himself). As said, once we know the facts, we can rename it with a date of use. Fry1989 (talk) 21:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Gryffindor (talk) 01:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Fry1989, first:

1. I'm offline most of the time, as of now.
2. I repeat: Due to Austrian law of 1984-03-28, this "style" could FOR_SURE not be in use for any Austrian federal presidents, according president-office@hofburg.at 's message Zahl S120000/88-BS/2010 from 15. November 2010 17:29.
3. Among people who are very competent on Austrian marine tradition, I did not find anyone who is even AWRARE of this "strange" standard. Austrian Army, where you took this "strange thing" from, does not answer (~"as is the use", in this country).
4. I thought it to be the minor damage to the project to replace this ~"artefact" by the real standard, as is in use.
5. I am also aware thar User:Gryffindor would agree to more than one nonsense.
6. In case you would like to keep version "11:45, 3 May 2010" it should be renamed into something like "Standard, claimed to be Austrian preident's, as shown on...&c". The file name "Flag_of_the_President_of_Austria".EXT should EXCLUSIVELY be reserved for the REAL one!
7. It is very well possible to remove former erroneous versions, as G* (to whom I do not intend to talk any more), having been an admin, should know.
8. So, what do YOU think would be more intelligent? Best, [w.] 23:47, 26 December 2010 (UTC) -- [w.] 00:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

W., this file should stay the "wrong" version. Use File:Flag of Austria (state).svg in all articles where you want it - but not overwrite this file with a completely different one. We can also rename this file if this name is incorrect - but please do not overwrite it as Gryffindor and Fry said above. Viele Grüße --Saibo (Δ) 16:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Still totally disagree, sorry. The least harm would be to overwrite this file, and to possibly re-upload that bloody "seemingly original version", which is not backed by A.N.Y primary source, up to now, under another name. (I think that some guy having been allowed to present ONE Army webpage, but not reacting on a request, ist NOT.AT.ALL to be called a primary source!!!)

See also Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Blocks and protections on further proceeding. Best, [w.] 18:57, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Usages ([1] or [2]) should be replaced by the wikis then (I have put an advice that it should be checked in the delinker command) if not intentionally the old one is used. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 14:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)