File talk:Monument 1st armoured polish division Normandy Dday.jpg

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Comment - What's the copyright status of the statue? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this comment Crisco. Of course, as an old (french) regular here, I asked this question to myself. My answer was and is the following: this is not a statue, only a polished (pun!) but very common marble plaque you can find the sames in all cemeteries in France, not copyrightable. We have a category about the polish eagle, which is a very old heraldic symbol of Poland, public domain. No questions with the text, normal letters. We have a category too for the polish hussars helmet wings, this design is frequently used in Commons. No derivative work of any copyrighted work. No author, no signature. With all these elements, I think we are here far below the threshold of originality. --Jebulon (talk) 22:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting idea, but France's TOO is very, very low. I mean "nail clippers can be copyrighted" and "gold letter over a bathroom door can be copyrighted" low. There's also the question of the content of the text itself... I'm still uncomfortable with this. Not enough to oppose, but I can't get behind this otherwise wonderful image. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think your examples are relevant in this case. Maybe you should initiate a Deletion Request ? By the way, who should/could be the author owner of the copyright ?--Jebulon (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are relevant in so far as they show how low the TOO is in France (considerably lower than, say, the US). As I said, I'm not uncomfortable enough to oppose this (and, by implication, take this to DR), but I'm also not sure enough to support the image. The copyright owner would be the body which ordered the plaque and had the text written. I'd assume that's the French government. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO, you are confusing a little about the notions of "droits d'auteur", copyright, threshold of originality, freedom of panorama etc in my country... The copyright owner is the artist and only the artist, if any. Never the owner of the object. There is no author here. Nobody can claim to be the victim of a copyright violation. The text is only a text, not an explicit part of a work of art, as in the example you mentioned (the gold letters). Would you delete in Commons all the photos of plaques with texts in France ? As you can read, the plaque was ordered by the Association Nationale du Souvenir de la 1ère Division Blindée Polonaise, which is a french association. It was paid by a public subscription. The object was made by a local funerary marble factory. I think this discission is interesting, I put a copy in the discussion page of the file. If needed, you can answer there, because the VIC page is not the good place for that.--Jebulon (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit different topic: French copyright still allows legal persons such as corporate bodies to hold copyright. I've got to work with an English translation (I'm not confident enough in my French for legal issues; I'm using the first English translation linked here)... but Article L113-5 says "A collective work shall be the property, unless proved otherwise, of the natural or legal person under whose name it has been disclosed.", which I understand as meaning that works published by a legal person (such as the Association Nationale du Souvenir de la 1ère Division Blindée Polonaise) are copyrighted by the legal person which published them, except where an individual author is noted. Furthermore, regarding the text, even if we accept that the text is not considered part of the sculpture/memorial (I disagree), it is still copyrightable in and of itself: Article L113-3 suggests that different elements of a work are separately copyrightable, since that would be a prerequisite for different contributors to enforce different their own copyrights on different parts of a work. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Chris Woodrich, we are here now, in the discuss page of the file, not on my own talk page.--Jebulon (talk) 09:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC). I am a jurist, but it is difficult to explain legal notions in a foreign language, especially for a "latin" jurist to a "common law" citizen ! "Property" does not mean "copyright owner" ! "Property" is a material, physical notion. "Copyright" is an intellectual, moral one. "Copyright" is not a part of "property". You sculpt a statue, you sell it, you remain the author, owner of the copyright (better said, "droit d'auteur", which is not exactly the same). The copyright is hold ONLY by the author, and his successors, 70 years after his death. After that, the work is elevated in the Public Domain. The answer here is : 1) there is nothing copyrightable, and 2) there is nobody who is able to claim about copyright.--Jebulon (talk) 09:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment I agree with Jebulon here. This is too simple to get a copyright. Regards, Yann (talk) 12:27, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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