File talk:Mkhedruli.svg

ტ

Do we need arrows #2 and #3 on letter ტ? Jaqeli (talk) 23:39, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I do. When I first saw this letter, I didn't know if the top or bottom circle should be written first. I also didn't know if the line turned back on itself, like a cursive Cyrillic в, creating a sharp angle, or continued smoothly through. The extra arrows do make it a bit busy, but they also make it completely obvious how the letter is written. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Good. Can you add additional arrow to ღ? Make it just like letter დ is with 3 arrows. Jaqeli (talk) 00:00, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I adjusted it, but not quite in that way. I moved the second arrow to the bottom left to match the other letters with that kind of shape. დ has an extra arrow to tell you to write the loop clockwise. If I were to add another arrow to ღ, I'd want to add ones to several of the other letters too. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:52, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

True. Well done kwami. Jaqeli (talk) 10:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

რ

Kwami, can you make arrow #3 of letter რ as a double-directional arrow? Like this here. Jaqeli (talk) 13:38, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I thought of doing that. We'd want one on ზ as well. The problem is that I think the reader would be confused as to what that means: Do you write it both ways each time, like a zigzag? Which direction is stroke 3, and which is stroke 4, and why didn't we add a 4? etc. Another possibility would be to have two arrows with the word "or" in between,

← or →

but that causes other problems: It makes the image busy, and now it's in English rather than being international. I couldn't think of a satisfactory solution.

There's another thought I had: Put an "×" at where you start writing the stroke; that way we wouldn't need numbers except for letters that really have two strokes, like რ and ქ, and we wouldn't even need arrows for most of the letters. But again, the reader might not understand, even though that's a fairly common convention.

We could do both: Double-headed (bi-directional) arrows and bulbs/exes, but we'd need a footnote to explain them, and the footnote should be in the image. But now we're back to the image being in English rather than international. Maybe we don't care about that?

Or we could have two copies of the letters რ and ზ, one in each direction, but again I think that might just be confusing. Kwamikagami (talk) 19:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

გ, ლ, ტ, უ, წ

Kwami, I really liked your edits with the ticks and many other but what have you done with these letters? None of them is written like that. Please put back its original forms. გ is not written like that at all and its form has nothing to an original გ. ლ is also just a shockingly bad. It's not ლ at all. ტ is not written like that. It should have a little number 8 form in the middle not just a tick. უ is also a disaster. As for წ, only because წ is written sometimes like a reverted შ it does not mean it should be included with that form. წ is not written like that at all. წ must have a very sharp shape as it had before. I liked your edits on ჭ and ჯ but those five letters I've mentioned above should be put back with their original forms as they had. Jaqeli (talk) 08:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I've seen them all written like that, in multiple sources. Take a look at the second video, which is what I modeled most of them on. Kwamikagami (talk) 08:37, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

That amateur video is not important. Many write as they wish but these 5 letters are not the way it is shown here written like that. ტ can be considered normal in this case but გ, ლ, უ and წ are just seriously bad and ugly in every possible way. We don't write like that those letters. ლ is just shocking. Please put the original forms back. Jaqeli (talk) 08:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The Georgian Ministry of Education shows წ written that way, as a mirror image of შ. The ministry also has the closed-ვ form for გ, and something close to what I wrote for უ, which I've seen quite often. The form for ლ shows the reader how it could be written with one arc. I was trying to pare the letters down to what is characteristic of them, since that's what a learner really needs to know. The reader knows what they look like in print. What they need to also see is what they look like in handwriting. Kwamikagami (talk) 10:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I can agree on წ and ტ. But ლ, გ and უ should by all means be back to its original forms. So change them back. See the official video of the ministry and you'll see how those 3 letters are written which are very different from current ones. Video is here Jaqeli (talk) 10:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

And by the way, what program do you use for editing SVG files? Jaqeli (talk) 10:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I was watching the official video! I was just about to change these letters back to the way you wanted them, and then I watched it again. The Georgian Ministry of Education instructs us to write გ as a closed ვ, just like in the handwriting video. A little diversity is good for the reader. Kwamikagami (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Kwami, stop it. How can you tell me what is right and wrong me being a native Georgian? I know how those letters are handwritten and გ and ლ are a disasterous written right now. ლ is not written the way you've put it here. This ლ has nothing to do with ლ in the video. Same is with გ. Please watch it closely and zoom a bit video. გ must have a oval type of belly and the hook should be going into a very middle of it. Jaqeli (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not concerned with Truth, but with verifiability. The Georgian Ministry of Education and Science says that you are wrong about გ. No offense, but they're the more reliable source. We have another native speaker who disagrees with you about ლ. Kwamikagami (talk) 01:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

გ is not written like that in the video. The hook is connected in the middle not on the right side as you've put it. And who is that native Georgian speaker who disagrees with me on ლ? I want you to show me who that person is. Jaqeli (talk) 06:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

(1) You need to watch the video again. It's as clear as day. (2) Георгий Ефимов at gruzinskij.ru. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Now I understand why you made those letters that ugly. First of Георгий Ефимов from that site is not a native Georgian and hardly knows much about Georgian and the shapes of its letters. I understand you based your letters from the video from his channel which is originally uploaded by other user and you've based it your views from that. Here's the original video. In that video that woman is writing Georgian letters in the ugliest possible way and that amateur writing can in no way be considered normal in any way and especially being based upon the current chart. I've told you many times go and see the original video of Georgian ministry of education on FULL SCREEN and not some users who know nothing about its original shapes. Jaqeli (talk) 09:43, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

And I've told you many times that it is according to the Georgian ministry of education. I can't help it if you refuse to see, but I'll take the opinion of the ministry of education over yours. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Where do you see such an ugly ლ, გ and უ in that video? You are blatantly lying right now. ლ, გ and უ are not written like that in the official video of the ministry. You have modeled those 3 letters not from the ministry but from this video which is the worst possible handwriting of the Georgian letters ever. You have no knowledge of the Georgian letters and their original forms and you cannot lecture me how these letters are written. Thus reverting back to what it was before you uglified those letters. Jaqeli (talk) 12:05, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

So you don't know how to watch a video. It's simple: You press "play" and keep your eyes open.

We've gotten into these arguments before, where it turns out you don't realize that you don't know what you're talking about.

The Ministry of Education has გ written like that. Sylfaen, Avaza, and Akaki Razmadze's fonts have უ written like that. I would grant you ლ, which is similar to but not quite the same as several fonts, if you weren't wrong on every single other letter. Just because you don't write them this way does not mean other people don't: The world's bigger than just you. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

How lovely. A person who has no idea about Georgian is lecturing me how do we write those letters in reality. Untill you don't update გ, ლ and უ according to the official video of the ministry you cannot have those ugly letters in the image. Jaqeli (talk) 09:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And we cannot accept claims that are contradicted by our sources. Whether you think the handwriting taught by the ministry is "ugly" is utterly irrelevant.

Since you're either unwilling or incapable of watching your own reference, your opinion is worthless. This isn't about whether you know Georgian, but about whether you're competent as an editor. You've demonstrated over and over again that you're not. Because of this, I don't believe anything you say unless you can demonstrate it, per Wikipedia's requirement for reliable sources – and especially where you provide sources and they contradict you. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you actually understand what I've said above? I said you should update the letters გ, ლ and უ according to the official video of the ministry. Ministry's official video does not have the letters which you blatantly uglified and your incompetent editing with zero knowledge in Georgian writing is unacceptable. Again, this is the source you should update those 3 letters. Until that is not done the current image cannot stay. Jaqeli (talk) 22:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with you? I've had lots of idiotic edit-wars with you, but this takes the cake: *You* supplied the reference, and now you refuse to follow it. Your arguments are completely irrational. Discussing things with you is almost a complete waste of time. Go ahead, fuck up the chart as much as you like: I've removed it from the article. If you take the edit-war there, I will request to have you blocked – again. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with me? I'd say what's wrong with you? Why do you refuse to see that those 3 letters are wrong? See this and try to find the differences which exist. I've asked you several times already on these 3 letters but you're refusing to see that they are wrong. Now you see? გ needs to have a line in the middle and should have an oval belly, ლ must have a longer comb-like lines and უ needs to have an upper line. Where does your stubbornness comes from? I am clearly showing you these mistakes to correct but you refuse them to see. That is why I've reverted them to the older version. Jaqeli (talk) 11:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad you posted that image. It proves my case for g and u. L is demonstrated by the other sources I posted. I'm tired of arguing over the color of the sky with you, so I'm signing off. Good bye. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

ღ

ღ is a georgian letter? — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 31.146.211.198 (talk) 07:44, 01 July 2016 (UTC)

ლ

ლ letter is so wrong :( please correct it :( — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 2607:FB90:24BA:CB75:0:1C:ED12:B801 (talk) 05:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

L

The L doesn't seem right. I'm Georgian can let you know how to correct it if you want :) — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.245.159.104 (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Ts'

Ts' letter needs to be modified.