File talk:Karte Portugiesisch-Spanischer Verträge.png

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Begründung für die Saragossa-Linie

[edit]

Die Saragossa-Linie wird in der Literatur häufig auf 135° Ost festgeschrieben. Diese Gradzahl ist nach derzeitigem Kenntnisstand nicht nachvollziehbar. Es gibt für die Berechnung der Linie zwei feststehende Größen: 297,5 Legua als Entfernung „von den Molukken“ und 111 km für den Abstand zweier Grade auf dem Äquator. Für die Länge einer Legua (Siehe auch Meile) schwanken die Angaben zwischen 5.000 und 6179,74 Metern. Für die Berechnungen wurde der Wert 5500 Meter benutzt, der sich auf zwei Angaben im Artikel Meile stützt, wonach sich die portugisische Meile nur um rund 70 Meter von der spanischen Meile unterscheidet. Demnach berechnet sich die Linie: 

297,5 Legua * 5500 Meter = 1636250 Meter = 1636,250 km
1636,250 km / 111 km (Abstand der Meridiane am Äquator) = 14,74 Grad
14,74 Grad + 127,5 Grad (ca. Östliche Länge der Molukken (Inseln Tidore und Ternate)) ~ 142,2 Grad.

Der Wert 142° wird auch durch eine Karte in Geschichte Portugals und des portugiesischen Weltreichs von A.H. de Oliveira Marques, Ausgabe 2001, gestützt. Sollte es fundierte (berechenbare) Zweifel an dieser Darstellung geben, scheuen Sie sich nicht, dies in dieser Diskussion darzustellen. --Lencer 06:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Treaty of Alcaçovas

[edit]

Hi.

I wrote the article on the Tratado de Alcáçovas for the Wikipedia in Spanish.

I would like to point out that this Treaty does not define any line. It only mentions the Atlantic territories that belong to Castille (the Canary Islands only) and to Portugal (Guinea, Açores, Madeira and so on). The idea that this repartition was equivalent to a parallel line running through Cape Bojador is controversial and seems to have been put forward by the Portuguese delegation that negotiated the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1493. In any case, both the Açores and Madeira archipelagos are located well north of the line shown on this map.

In conclusion, I would advise that the "line" of Alcaçovas be removed from the map or at least be clearly marked as hypothetical and controversial.

Cheers. --Hispalois 06:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thx for Your advises and informations. I will remove the line next time and only markup the Cape Bojador. If You like an spanisch or english Version of the map, please send me a list of translations, and I will do it. Greetings Lencer 08:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the line. --Lencer 15:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lencer. Sorry for answering so late, I have been rather busy lately. Here you are a list of translations to convert the map into Spanish and English:

  • Kanarische Inseln = Canary Islands = Islas Canarias
  • Kapverdische Inseln = Cape Verde Islands = Islas de Cabo Verde
  • Äquator = Equator = Ecuador
  • Molukken = Moluccas or Moluccan Islands = Islas Molucas
  • Koloniale Demarkations... Jhd. = Colonial demarcation lines between Castille/Spain and Portugal in the 15th and 16th Centuries = Líneas coloniales de demarcación entre Castilla/España y Portugal en los siglos XV y XVI.
  • Vertrag von Alcaçovas = Treaty of Alcaçovas = Tratado de Alcáçovas
  • Vertrag von Tordesillas= Treaty of Tordesillas = Tratado de Tordesillas
  • Vertrag von Saragossa= Treaty of Saragossa = Tratado de Zaragoza
  • Päpstliche Linie (1493) = Line of Pope Alexander VI (Bull Inter Caetera, 1493)= Línea del Papa Alejandro VI (Bula Inter Caetera, 1493)

Finally, Kap Bojador would be Cape Bojador in English and Cabo Bojador in Spanish. However, this toponym is not mentioned in any of the treaties listed above. It does appear, however, in bulls issued by mid-15th century popes in favor of Portugal. Therefore, I think it is useful that Cape Bojador appears on the map but it should not be visually de-linked from the Treaty of Alcaçovas.

Regards, --Hispalois 22:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hispalois, I will create the maps next time, but I didn't understand what You mean about Cape Bojador. Isn't it the only markup for the Treaty of Alcaçovas? Please discribe it in an other way. Thx Lencer 11:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Many historians have effectively written what you are saying but in fact it is a mistake. If you look for "Bojador" in the text of the Treaty of Alcaçovas in this English version you will find out that the word does not appear at all. Many islands and territories are mentioned in the text but not Bojador. --Hispalois 16:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the new Maps in EN and ES. Please check out the discription of the files and link them in the articles You like. Greetings Lencer 09:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Karte_Portugiesisch-Spanischer_Verträge.png&oldid=71389580"