File talk:Drapeau Gouttières.png

Identical with the lion of the Czech Republic

Official Small coat of arms of the Czech Republic

Greetings. I am quite confused about the design of this lion, which is identical to the offcial state coats of arms of the Czech Republic. I have searched for this heraldic symbol of Gouttières on the internet to verify its appearance. Unfortunately, I only found it in one place, the website gouttieres63.fr. I would like to know if this is currently the official emblem of the Gouttières commune and if the government of the Czech Republic knows it, respectively if the Czech government knows that the French commune uses the same two-tailed lion which was designed by the heraldic artist Jiří Louda especially for Czechia and has been officially used from 1992. I don't know about any information that same work should be also for the French city Gouttières from 2023. Can someone explain this? This file was recently created in February 2023 and is part of a series of emblems inappropriately using the lion of the Czech Republic. We discussed to solve the same issue about here, here, here, here and here. This two-tailed lion is currently official emblem of Czechia which continues the tradition of the historical emblem of the Kingdom of Bohemia, the two tails of lion are not without reason, but it's related to the importance of the Kingdom of Bohemia. It's quite strange that the same sign is said to have a French commune. Why? How did it come about? It must be said that the Czech lion should be protected as a personal artwork and as a official national symbol of the Czech Republic and the Czech nation, not a free template that can be recolored or remade at will. Thanks. Dragovit (talk) 11:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Heraldic Lion (Two tailed) 05.svg Free Template

Hello.

Primo : The lion is not the lion of Czechia (crowned, not this one).

Secundo : I only used CC0 files. There's namy Free templates of this type right here : Category:SVG coat of arms elements - lions rampant. I used this one : Heraldic Lion (Two tailed) 05.svg. And I recommend you to read the Licence : Autorisation/Public Domain.

Tertio : The Czechia lion dont have the monopole of the double-tailed. The reason is explained in the description : One for the Bourbon sire, and the second one for the Auxerre/Nevers counts. That's the story of the Town, nothing else.

Quatro: Please stop to see Czech Lion everywhere.

To finish. I don't really like to see all that's messages secretly posed on the pages without discuting with me first. I please you to stop to track all my changes and files one by one. This behavior is unbearable just like the pressure and the wrong tone you put in your messages. I notify an administrator because I'm very tired of all of this. Benoît Prieur (talk · contribs) --Combrian (talk) 17:23, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Dragovit: ,

I don't understand why the reusage of a DP image here to create a new image would be in any manner a kind of problem. Even if it represents a lion used by others countries, entities. It is absolutely not a reason of deletion here.

In addition, your attitude towards Cambrian becomes problematic: if only your argumentation was tangible and solid, why not, but it is absolutely not.

I guess we can still get out of this situation (for which you are responsible) without further damage to anyone. I suggest you close in keeping status every procedure you imprudently opened.

Regards, ----Benoît (d) 20:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@Benoît Hi. Please If you want respond objectively, then respond to the content of my comment and please do not create theories ("attitude towards Cambrian") that have nothing to do with it and the topic. It's completely off-topic and not true, also I did not suggest that this file be deleted, but I did invite questions to be answered. It is important to know if the Gouttières commune adopted this emblem in this form or not, otherwise the picture is just self-made without any telling value and that's fact. It's a fundamental question about the credibility of the emblem, not just this one but every emblem of official use. I note this is not a reconstruction of some old medieval emblem, which was long forgotten, but the official current emblem that was to be supposedly adopted in 2023, the sources are needed. Probably the only source is one website and the question is whether it is enough. Dragovit (talk) 07:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Combrian: Of course that the lion is Czech, because everything it contains was created by Jiří Louda in 1992 as a state symbol, not as a symbol of French commune, not even for medieval Armenia (the author died in 2015 and this is happening without his knowledge, please respect). Therefore I believe that the work should be protected like other state emblems, national signs, company logos etc or author's personal work, that's all, what is there to be misunderstood? That has nothing to do with alleged "attitude towards Combrian" or that "I see the Czech lion everywhere in each two-tailed lion", both of these are absolutely false. The graphic design, shapes etc of this particular lion were created by Jíří Louda, you just changed the colors and that's all, you just created a very poor self-made thing which has nothing to do with the Gouttières or Cilician Armenia, because the heraldic traditions of these countries are different. For example, try repainting the black eagle of Germany to white and it will become the eagle of Poland? It makes no sense. I'm sorry you're tired of it, but you should have thought about it before when you decided to use this emblem, tiredness is not an argument, neither this one isn't relevant nor the previous ones, all just irrelevant and off-topic in an attempt to not answer the questions in my post. Dragovit (talk) 07:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello Benoît Prieur (talk · contribs), Dragovit (talk · contribs). I will answer to your questions. First, this is really the Official Emblem of the Commune. I created myself for it. But when I created this one I did'nt know that was the Czech Lion, I used a free template found on Wikimedia (this one : Heraldic Lion (Two tailed) 05.svg ; I did'nt change myself color, I just took a free file).

I never wanted to take precisely the Czech lion or disrespect anyone. For the sources, like it is wrote in the file page, section "Source", you can see the Official Bulletin of the Commune of 2023, p. 3.

Can we talk more calmly ? For you, what is the solution ? --Combrian (talk) 07:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for the explanation. First it is important to know that all what I wrote here is not against you, it's not offensive and I don't want to hurt you even though it may seem that way from your point of view and I understand that it's not pleasant. I admit that I myself am not sure in which cases the Czech lion can be used or not, it's just a question, but important. The answer to this question can help you decide whether to keep the emblem in this form or eventually rework it. I can't answer, I'm just pointing out now that it's controversial, that's why I didn't suggest those two files to be deleted. I realize your intentions were honest. Dragovit (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Dragovit (talk · contribs). Thank you for your last message. When I created this file I looked for free files to be sure of having no problem. I saw this Lion, put by the uploader as Public Domain, and it was pretty good. So I took it. I did'nt know all of that. I will change the file by an other lion with two tailed (and no more the Czech Lion of course). --Combrian (talk) 08:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit : That's done. I found other CC0 Lion Model Two Tailed and I modified the flag and the coat of arms. The Coat of arms are the same but the an other file and no more the Czech Lion. --Combrian (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I understand your intentions and I don't want to bother you, that's why I'm not writing this here. It is not about me what I want, but what is the best not only for Czechia, but also for the Gouttières commune or for the reconstruction of the emblem of Cilician Armenia, of course also for this files if they are to last a long time on the Wikimedia.org without someone changing them without your knowledge, this may happen sometime in the future, It's better to estimate it now. It is common that some images have been changed over the years, because something wasn't right there and their authors may not know it. In the end, my comments can be helpful, even if they are unpleasant. I'm sorry that I may have spoiled your mood. So if you think everything is fine with that, leave the emblems in this form, but if you feel something is uncertain with it, propably rework is maybe the best solution for all. Dragovit (talk) 08:43, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this comprehensive message. So we found a solution. I uploaded a new version (for the two files) which is a free model and used for coats of arms of French municipalities. --Combrian (talk) 09:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, thank you for your willingness and understanding. everything I wrote here was reluctantly in my feelings, but the opinion, suspicion and trying to find a solution were stronger, not to defy anyone or destroy anyone's files. So what to say at the end? I believe the new version will be dignified as well and will worthy represent Gouttières. Or if you are a representative of the commune and if you would like, you can also look for some heraldry-oriented graphic designer to create an original emblem and change this over time, but it won't be free of course. But this current version is all right and dignified, I think. Many municipalities or towns have similar ones. I wish you good luck. Dragovit (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)