File talk:Alternate Coat of arms of Kenya.svg
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Not sure why heraldic white has to be image grey... AnonMoos (talk) 07:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- That is how many decide to interpret it on here, which I personally do not agree with. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 16:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Heraldic white" is not a tincture (heraldic colours). The name is en:argent. Xavigivax (talk) 19:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ok then, the main issue that seems to be not only at this image, but at others (Singapore, Senegal, Cuba, Chile) is the color of white to be used on the images. Government publications I have from Singapore claim white, while I have not been able to obtain specific guidelines for the other nations). I still strongly believe that if a government says the image should be white (like in this one), we should use it. Out of all of the images I have from the Kenyan Government (the constitution that was just passed shows a black and white drawing) we should try, as much as possible, to match the government image. We now have many images locked because of this and it seriously needs to end. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 20:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Heraldic white" is not a tincture (heraldic colours). The name is en:argent. Xavigivax (talk) 19:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Xavigivax, if you wanted to use special graphic techniques to simulate a metallic appearance, that would be one thing, but using a flat non-metallic gray for heraldic white just makes the whites look dirty, and needlessly distracts and detracts from the appearance of the image. We've had previous discussions at File_talk:Flag_of_Italy.svg and elsewhere (including extremely lengthy discussions about white vs. dirty gray in Polish national symbols), and they go around and around without real conclusion, but I've never seen a valid reason presented as to why basic white should be presented as distracting dirty gray in flag and coat-of-arms images. I've read a number of books on heraldry, and none of them told me that argent in heraldic blazons should be presented as dirty gray... AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- And, in the case of this image, we have government sources said "same colors as the flag." In the case of Kenya, the flag has white and does not have any extra element in it (the rest of the colors are in a British Standard). Regardless, I have asked the Embassy of Kenya to provide a few images, books and scans to see what can be done. As I told Fry, the new Kenya constitution only has a b/w scan of the coat of arms. There are some times where artistic license is ok, but we are trying to accurately represent a national coat of arms and their government says white. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 04:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
- I only could say is that you both have no idea on heraldry. In flags you can find the colours white and silver, in a coat of arms, not exist "white heraldic". AnonMoos, I can't answer to you if you don't use a technical vocabulary, basic white is not a tincture. I search in google books only one time in English the terms "heraldry argent" and the first book explain the two ways that the argent could be represented. [1]. Sorry, but I can't believe you when you say that you read a number of books in heraldry and you don't know this, because this is basic. Zscout, "same colours that flag" don't means "use the same tone colours to draw a coat of arms and to draw a flag". The same colours means that the coat of arms has the tinctures corresponding to the colours of the flag. The flag is red, green, black and white and the coa has gules, vert, sable and argent... You are confused about symbols, a flag or a coa is not a logo. In your country, you has viewed hundred of flags technically different and you always have said that is the US flag... and not depend of the tone colour of the red or the blue. There are only a correct way to represent a logo, but there are thousand ways to represent a coa correctly. Are two different types of symbols. I'm really sorry that you don't understand the difference. The symbol that you knows as coat of arms is not saved as image, is saved as text, the name is blazon, and a blazon (text) describes a symbol that has multiple representations, it depend on the artist that draw the image. An emblem or logo is different, because there are not technical vocabulary and rules to describe it. Another thing that I don't understand, is why do you think that this "British standard" is better than the colours that propose the International Federation of Vexillological Associations, taking this colours to represent a coa, has not academical sense. Any heraldist will not support this kind of decision. In short, the day that you understand the difference between a logo and a coat of arms, this discussion will end. (P.S. Excuse me my poor English.) Xavigivax (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- Let me go ahead and break this down into different sections.
- Remember, I am not an expert at heraldry and while I maybe have one book about this subject, I am more versed about flags. But yes, I know that argent means white.
- In the United States, many cities will have the same color of the US flag, but the shades are not precise or are not defined. I only know of a few states that defined their flag colors, as for cities, a few have.
- The British Standard is what the Government of Kenya uses for their flag colors and defined as such in the Constitution of Kenya (2010). FIAV has no control over what countries use for their colors and many times I have better information than FIAV.
- FIAV only deals with flags, not coat of arms as an organization. Each member might work on coat of arms, but it is their own thing.
- The issue will not end until we agree on a standard. Many countries will not follow the rules of heraldry anymore, plain and simple. As with both in this image and Singapore, I used government materials to cite the colors. This is what we have to work with. Let's say someone changes the Spanish arms to where the grey is removed and replaced by white. I will revert that change; I have documents from the Spanish Government saying the grey must be grey. In this case, the Kenyan Government says white is white, not argent not silver, but white. They do not describe their arms in the classic terms but use modern. We need to be using government sources. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- I only could say is that you both have no idea on heraldry. In flags you can find the colours white and silver, in a coat of arms, not exist "white heraldic". AnonMoos, I can't answer to you if you don't use a technical vocabulary, basic white is not a tincture. I search in google books only one time in English the terms "heraldry argent" and the first book explain the two ways that the argent could be represented. [1]. Sorry, but I can't believe you when you say that you read a number of books in heraldry and you don't know this, because this is basic. Zscout, "same colours that flag" don't means "use the same tone colours to draw a coat of arms and to draw a flag". The same colours means that the coat of arms has the tinctures corresponding to the colours of the flag. The flag is red, green, black and white and the coa has gules, vert, sable and argent... You are confused about symbols, a flag or a coa is not a logo. In your country, you has viewed hundred of flags technically different and you always have said that is the US flag... and not depend of the tone colour of the red or the blue. There are only a correct way to represent a logo, but there are thousand ways to represent a coa correctly. Are two different types of symbols. I'm really sorry that you don't understand the difference. The symbol that you knows as coat of arms is not saved as image, is saved as text, the name is blazon, and a blazon (text) describes a symbol that has multiple representations, it depend on the artist that draw the image. An emblem or logo is different, because there are not technical vocabulary and rules to describe it. Another thing that I don't understand, is why do you think that this "British standard" is better than the colours that propose the International Federation of Vexillological Associations, taking this colours to represent a coa, has not academical sense. Any heraldist will not support this kind of decision. In short, the day that you understand the difference between a logo and a coat of arms, this discussion will end. (P.S. Excuse me my poor English.) Xavigivax (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- And, in the case of this image, we have government sources said "same colors as the flag." In the case of Kenya, the flag has white and does not have any extra element in it (the rest of the colors are in a British Standard). Regardless, I have asked the Embassy of Kenya to provide a few images, books and scans to see what can be done. As I told Fry, the new Kenya constitution only has a b/w scan of the coat of arms. There are some times where artistic license is ok, but we are trying to accurately represent a national coat of arms and their government says white. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 04:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Xavigivax, if you wanted to use special graphic techniques to simulate a metallic appearance, that would be one thing, but using a flat non-metallic gray for heraldic white just makes the whites look dirty, and needlessly distracts and detracts from the appearance of the image. We've had previous discussions at File_talk:Flag_of_Italy.svg and elsewhere (including extremely lengthy discussions about white vs. dirty gray in Polish national symbols), and they go around and around without real conclusion, but I've never seen a valid reason presented as to why basic white should be presented as distracting dirty gray in flag and coat-of-arms images. I've read a number of books on heraldry, and none of them told me that argent in heraldic blazons should be presented as dirty gray... AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
