User talk:Sbrondace

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Sbrondace!

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File:Helias Doundoulakis, 2012.JPG

File:Helias Doundoulakis, 2012.JPG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

Dontreader (talk) 20:50, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

File:Helias Doundoulakis in Camp Crowder, MO, 1945.JPG

File:Helias Doundoulakis in Camp Crowder, MO, 1945.JPG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

Dontreader (talk) 21:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Public Domain

Try to find out if the older image that I nominated for deletion could be used based on public domain policies. Please read this information: Commons:Licensing#Material_in_the_public_domain. There are at least two places here on Commons where you can ask experts for help. Therefore, if the picture is deleted, you might be able to request undeletion, or to upload it again using the public domain rationale if they say that's valid. Good luck. Dontreader (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Newer picture (from 2012)

Hello,

I'm sorry for not replying sooner. In the future, please use my discussion page instead of my user page for any questions or comments, or better yet, just write your messages here since I'm watching your page. Did you see what I wrote above about public domain? That might be a proper rationale for using the picture taken in 1945, but it would be wise to ask the OTRS Noticeboard first. Please answer this question: was that picture from 1945 ever published anywhere, like in a newspaper, a book, a magazine, or anywhere else, or did the soldier just give it to your father, who kept it for his private collection, and it was never published? I see no evidence of the picture being published, but I'm asking you to please confirm.

Regarding the more recent picture, from 2012, please understand that Wikimedia Commons has very strict rules. The person who takes a picture is the owner, not the person who is in the picture. Since you are the son of Helias Doundoulakis, do you have a picture of him that you have taken? Or can you take a picture of him? Maybe you live close to his home, or maybe you will visit him soon. Any picture that you have taken of him, or that you take of him (your favorite, or his favorite) can be uploaded by you as "own work" during the upload process, and it can be used for his article's main picture.

Please reply as soon as possible. I think we can find solutions. Thank you very much, and please always sign your messages with four tildes ~~~~ at the end of each message. Dontreader (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your help. I hope I didn't confuse you, but I'm not used to the Wiki site and writing things. The picture 2012 I took, the other one is my Dads', but he can confirm it if you wish if you prefer ... to write to him, email, or whichever you think would be appropriate. No, the picture has not been used to the best of my recollection, or his, but I'll ask him again, too. If you'd like, would you like to remove it for now, and I'll see if he has one in his collection from the Army?

Hello again. Since you have stated that you took the 2012 picture, and since we are supposed to assume good faith, I modified the "author" on the file page, changing it to your user name. I wrote a comment on the deletion discussion page of that picture, asking them to keep the picture. You can see it here: Commons:Deletion requests/File:Helias Doundoulakis, 2012.JPG.

Regarding the 1945 picture, please remember that although your father has the picture in his collection, technically the person who took the picture owns the picture. That would be the same problem with any other picture from the Army. Thanks for telling me that you don't think that picture has been published anywhere (other than here at Commons). Please confirm that information with your father. I think the 1945 picture will get deleted but I also think I can upload it using a public domain rationale. I believe the picture is old enough, according to American copyright laws. You see, after a certain amount of years, pictures become part of the public domain. Copyrights expire. So the soldier who took that picture (dead or alive) probably does not have the copyright of that picture any more. I will do what I can. I think that photo has great encyclopedic value for the article. Please keep in touch. Regards, Dontreader (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Got it. The picture I took, in 2012 is no problem. Since the others are the WW II ones, to avoid any problems, etc., can we delete them? I asked my Dad, who said they might be in one of his books, so better play on the safe side and delete them. Should I do it? Or can you do it? Whichever, please advise, I will follow your instructions to the point. Thanks for all your help!Sbrondace (talk) 02:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for your reply. What I hope to do is to keep the 2012 picture from being deleted. My nomination for the deletion of that photograph was a misunderstanding, and I feel very bad about that because you took the picture. Please visit this page and tell them that you are the son of Helias Doundoulakis and that you took the picture: Commons:Deletion requests/File:Helias Doundoulakis, 2012.JPG

Also, thanks for telling me that perhaps the other pictures have been published in one of your father's books. There are two things that can be done. The first option is for you to try to get permission from the owner of those old images (maybe the publisher of the book, but your father would know) to release those pictures under a free license. If that is possible, please let me know because I have experience with formal declarations of consent, so I would help you. In fact, here's the standard letter, but I could help you with other details: Commons:Email_templates#Declaration_of_consent_for_all_inquiries. But if that seems too difficult or impossible, the 1945 picture will be deleted in a few days, I suppose. And if you cannot get permission to release the other old picture under a free license, you could nominate it for deletion as a goodwill gesture. I could help you with that, but it would be sad if both of those pictures get deleted because they are very good for the article. It would be great if you could get permission to use them, but if not, I'll help you with the nomination for deletion of the other old picture. Please let me know, and don't forget to comment on the page with the 2012 picture. Thanks for understanding, and I appreciate your cooperation. And thanks for signing! Dontreader (talk) 04:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Dontreader for replying so quickly. It's not important, and more work than necessary for what it's worth. But I thank you for your interest and support, since am not that savvy in doing this. To be honest, I feel like I'm lost in all the different pages to go to in Wikipedia, so I'm probably in it over my head with trying to get permissions, etc. Since he self-published the book through Xlibris, he owns the rights, copyright, everything about the book. But it was a good learning experience to find out all this info. If anyone really wishes, they can always see his books for info, and he has others from the many he took, probably from the OSS camera they issued to him in Cairo. I asked my Dad about the two old pictures, he said, "Who cares about the old pictures anyway, let them go my website or the OSS Society's website." I can't argue with a 91 year old genius! But thank you for your patience, and being so polite and understanding. If ever, you wish, feel free to visit him on his website, the newer one, www.trainedtobeanossspy.com, and leave a message on the "Contact" page, or leave a message on the "Blog" page. He'll love to talk to you also. If I had the patience and time, I would follow your advice for trying to keep them on the website, but really, it's not crucial. If in the future, if I get a photograph from him that is taken by someone else, and he knows who it is, ... the photographer, we need the photographer's permission? Even though the camera was his? All the best, Stephen

Hello again, I have asked my father, and he told me that the picture from the SOE training camp was in his book Trained to be an OSS Spy and the other one at Camp Crowder is in his website. So we might as well forget those, is that correct? I don't know if my note from yesterday above was seen? Thanks again. Sbrondace Sbrondace (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sbrondace,

I'm very sorry for the delay. It does take a long time to get familiar with the Wikipedia rules, and one never stops learning things there. Here at Commons, things are even more technical, so I don't blame you for making some mistakes. I still make mistakes quite often, here and on Wikipedia. What you said about Xlibris might give the old pictures a chance to be kept since - as you said - your father retains full rights instead of sharing them with the publisher. I asked an administrator a few moments ago if there is a public domain rationale that can be used, after all, for keeping those pictures (or for uploading them again using that rationale once they are deleted). It's a matter of waiting for a reply. Your father's website is amazing, and I really appreciate his outstanding service. A brilliant and courageous man indeed. I'm too ignorant concerning World War 2 history to have a meaningful conversation with him, but I deeply appreciate your kind offer!

I was wondering if when someone uses the Contact page to leave a message, is a reply sent with an email address related to trainedtobeanossspy.com ? For example, info@trainedtobeanossspy.com. Wikimedia Commons needs email addresses that are related to the websites where images can be found, for permission purposes. His Gmail account helias.doundoulakis@gmail.com would not help because it would not prove that it's actually him (I'm sure it's him, but the rules here are very strict because copyright issues can be extremely serious). That's why I only ask for permission to upload pictures belonging to people with email addresses that are related to the website where the pictures can be found. So please let me know if there's an email address related to trainedtobeanossspy.com since that could be helpful at some point (there are many excellent images there, including one that you uploaded here, you said).

Thanks for your most recent update. It's very good to know exactly where those old images are. I feel terrible for bothering your father! Please send him my apologies.

Finally, yes, even though it sounds strange, if your father gives his camera to someone else, and that person takes a picture of your father, the picture belongs to the person who took the picture, not your father. However, if after the picture is taken, if it is not published anywhere later, including on the Internet, then the person who took the picture can easily open an account here and upload the picture of your father as "own work". In other words, during the upload process, the person simply states that he/she owns the picture, and that's really simple. Any picture that a relative or friend of your father's has taken of him, at any time, just for private purposes, can be uploaded here as "own work" by the person who took the picture after opening an account here. I hope I have answered your questions properly. Anyway, I'll keep you informed, and many thanks for keeping in touch. Dontreader (talk) 00:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi again, Sbrondace. I was wondering if by any chance you've been marking your messages as "minor" edits; it seems like it, and that would explain why I never get notified when you write to me. Please make sure you do not click on the "minor edit" option; that's for fixing typos and stuff like that. If I'm wrong and you haven't been doing that, I apologize. Anyway, I hope to hear from you soon. No reply yet from the administrator. All the best, Dontreader (talk) 04:17, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Yes, I've been marking them "minor edits," I thought that's what I had to do before I left the page. Sorry. But I will save that for typos. As far as the email related to the website, that's a good question. I believe it goes to my father's email, but I'll ask Xlibris, since the blog goes to him on the email (I'll ask Neil.reid@xlibris.com, neil.reid@authorsolutions.com). I found where the pictures may have been from which was an older website, still operational for the older books he published: http://www.iwastrainedtobeaspy.com/gallery.html. Maybe it's not such a good idea to leave these pictures on the website. Maybe only the 2012 picture, what do you think? I'm open to your suggestions and advice, and would rather play it safe. Best, Sbrondace Sbrondace (talk) 05:59, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Connecting the uploaded pictures to websites

Hi Sbrondace,

Thank you very much for this very encouraging information. First, let me establish the following facts thanks to your research (and many thanks to your father, too):

The picture File:OSS Agent Helias Doundoulakis.JPG can be found on this website: http://www.trainedtobeanossspy.com/gallery/nggallery/page/2 (first column, fifth row). The image that you uploaded is a cropped version.

The picture File:Helias Doundoulakis in Camp Crowder, MO, 1945.JPG can be found on this website: http://www.iwastrainedtobeaspy.com/gallery.html. The image that you uploaded is a slightly cropped version.

At the bottom of the first website, it says, "Copyright © 2014. Helias Doundoulakis & Gabriella Gafni. All rights reserved." Therefore, and taking into account that your father used Xlibris to publish that book (which means that he retains full ownership), the first picture must be his now, and therefore he can release it under a free license.

At the bottom of the second website, it says, "Copyright © 2008-2009 I Was Trained To Be A Spy by Helias Doundoulakis". Therefore, just like with the first case, the second picture must belong to your father, and therefore he can release it under a free license.

I found a solution for the email address problem. An OTRS volunteer here at Commons can verify that your father is in fact the owner of the account helias.doundoulakis@gmail.com. This can be done by contacting your father through these contact forms:

http://www.trainedtobeanossspy.com/contact/ http://www.iwastrainedtobeaspy.com/contact-form.php

Once your father is contacted through those pages, he can reply to the questions using his Gmail account. It can't belong to anybody else. It's obviously some sort of a relay account.

I'm 90% sure that a solution can be worked out. Tonight I will withdraw the nomination of both pictures for deletion. I will modify both files tomorrow or soon. Please do this: contact your father through both contact pages, asking him to release each file under a free license. This way:

Use http://www.trainedtobeanossspy.com/contact/ to ask him for permission to use this file under a free license: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OSS_Agent_Helias_Doundoulakis.JPG

And use http://www.iwastrainedtobeaspy.com/contact-form.php to ask him to use this file under a free license: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Helias_Doundoulakis_in_Camp_Crowder,_MO,_1945.JPG

When he replies to you (two separate letters, of course), please let me know. Then I will help you with the rest, which is very easy. Don't worry about getting into trouble with Commons. In the worst of the cases, the pictures will be taken down, and they will do nothing to you. The only way to get into trouble is if they give you warnings and you keep on uploading more pictures, but that won't happen, I promise. I will also do my best to save the 2014 picture (I've already taken steps, and I will do more in a moment). You took the picture.

If you have any questions, please let me know, and please keep in touch. Thanks for your cooperation. Dontreader (talk) 07:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi again. After giving you such bothersome instructions for keeping the two old pictures, I now believe that the public domain rationale is still the best (and easiest) solution. I withdrew the nomination for deletion of the newer picture, as well as the nomination for deletion of the 1945 picture. We will see what happens. Please forget about requesting permission for the old pictures since I'm convinced they are in the public domain even though they appear in books and websites belonging to your father. I don't have time to work on that right now, but as soon as I do, I will ask someone here, to see what can be done. I asked an administrator for help, but there was just too much information, so I don't blame the administrator for declining to help.

If for whatever reason you do not want the older pictures to be released under a public domain rationale, please let me know, and I will ask for them to be deleted. Nevertheless, I think it would be good to keep them using that rationale, and I would do the work. I'm just not sure that I will succeed, but probably it can be done. That way your father won't have to do anything. I don't want to bother him with this matter. I have learned to never again nominate good-faith uploads for deletion, especially since there are so many bad-faith uploads here to concentrate on. I apologize for the huge inconvenience. Thanks again for your kindness. Dontreader (talk) 06:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dontreader, I sent the two letters through the contact pages for the pictures: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Helias_Doundoulakis_in_Camp_Crowder,_MO,_1945.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OSS_Agent_Helias_Doundoulakis.JPG I will also call him tomorrow to tell him. Whatever you think is best, I defer to your experience and judgement in these matters. I will call him in the AM. Thank you for your continued help, S sbrondaceSbrondace (talk) 06:49, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks, Sbrondace. In that case, when you receive the two separate replies, please let me know. I think that approach will work. If not, we will try the public domain rationale. Please be aware of the fact that releasing the pictures under a free license is not just for Wikipedia. Nothing to worry about, but that's something you and your father should know. Here's the declaration of consent again, just for you and your father to know exactly what must be done to complete the process once you receive his replies. I will help you if you agree to the terms. Here is the letter that would be sent in later: Commons:Email_templates#Declaration_of_consent_for_all_inquiries. As I said, I would take care of the technical details. Thanks again! Dontreader (talk) 07:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dontreader, Great. I will wait till the AM. I am an MD and will work tomorrow again till night time, hope I will explain this all to him coherently. Regards, S.

sbrondaceSbrondace (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sbrondace,

I'm sorry to say that there's a problem with the old picture that I nominated for deletion. An administrator voted to delete it, using arguments that I cannot counter. My plan was based on the survival of the picture. He says your father cannot release it under a free license. At this point, based on how complicated everything has become, I recommend removing the 1945 picture from the Wikipedia article. The newer picture seems to be safe. I also suggest that you use the two websites about his books as external links for your father's article. If you need any help, please let me know. Sorry about all this. Thanks. Dontreader (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Please don't take down the 1945 picture until a final decision is made here. A bot will delete it automatically, but it's better to keep it in the meantime in the article. All the best, Dontreader (talk) 06:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dontreader, no problem, no sense spending excess energy on it, it's not important. Anyway, I'll do as you say, but what is a bot? SteSbrondace (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sbrondace, many thanks for being so understanding. I really wish I had been given the opportunity to fix what I did. Anyway, there are many bots on Wikipedia and on Wikimedia Commons; they are like little robots that perform tasks in the form of edits. Each bot has a code with specific instructions. For example, there's a bot that is programmed to detect edits that are almost certainly vandalism, so the bot reverts those edits. Another bot removes the instruction to have a certain picture on a Wikipedia article once the picture has been deleted. I don't know exactly how they run around performing edits.

I will try to remember to help your father's article by adding those two websites as external links, but I'm quite busy at the moment. Many thanks again for your courtesy and kind cooperation. Have a nice day. Dontreader (talk) 19:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dontreader, I thank you for being so persistent to help the issue, and I am truly amazed at the professionalism behind Wikipedia. So I wish I could tell your administrators, but they can rest assure you and them are pretty thorough. The websites are there, under the bottom, I put them there, but wasn't sure if that was the most appropriate place. If you think it is, ok. If not, move it around the best you think. I wanted viewers to see it easily, but frankly, I was afraid in doing anything too cavalier for fear of someone seeing my computer mistakes (I think Wiki is made for someone a little more computer-literate than me!).

Hi Sbrondace! I should have checked your page first since you already had included those links in the external links section... they look perfect! By the way, notice that several bots have edited that article (any username that ends in "bot" is not human)! Good job with the article! Dontreader (talk) 23:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dontreader, Thanks again. That's pretty amazing with the bots. I don't recall seeing the word bot before in the article edits, but it's pretty amazing nonetheless. Hope I haven't distracted you away from more important things, SbrondaceSbrondace (talk) 04:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sbrondace. I'm glad to see that the picture that you took of your father has been kept. The deletion discussion has been closed. I regret that the 1945 picture was deleted, but it's good that they are strict here about enforcing the rules. Thank you so much for your kind cooperation and kindness. All the best... Dontreader (talk) 21:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I hope your father is doing great! Dontreader (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't have time to look, but you're right, it disappeared. No problem, he is doing great. What I did find out, was that the contact pages of his websites weren't working, so no one was able to get through to him, so I contacted Xlibris to fix it! So, something good came out of all of it! Anyway, he's doing fine, you can email him anytime, or through contact pages when they're fixed. He'll send you a signed copy of his book. I do have promo codes for them also, if you want me to send you some this way, if it's ok, or any other way. Let me know! Regards, SbrondaceSbrondace (talk) 22:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi again. At least I'm glad that readers of your father's websites will be able to contact him once the problem gets fixed. And I'm very happy to hear that he's doing very well. Such a remarkable man. However, I feel that all I have done is cause lots of trouble for both of you, so I'm embarrassed to accept such a generous gesture. Nevertheless, if you insist, I would be very grateful to have the opportunity to read one of his books. It would be a great privilege. Did you ever see the email that I sent you? It was a long time ago, but it should be there, maybe in the spam folder. If not, I can send you an email again, and then you can reply to me using email instead of this public talk page. Many thanks to both of you for being such class acts! Dontreader (talk) 23:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Dontreader I didn't remember a note about the other way to communicate, so I looked in spam folders, on my comcast account, but didn't find anything, unless it was already deleted. You can send it to me or my Dad, I'll send you a link or email my Dad he will send you a book signed, or both. I could give you as many of these codes as you want. Xlibris gave me 2-300 cards for this, each card could be used 3 times, like for tablet, computer, etc. All the best, sbrondaceSbrondace (talk) 04:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Dontreader, No trouble at all, take care sbrondace Sbrondace (talk) 04:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)