User talk:Donald Trung

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User 👥 Talk 💬 Chinese cash coins 🀄 French Indo-Chinese banknotes 💴 Chinese charms, amulets, and talismans 🪙 Nguyễn Dynasty documents 📜 Numismatic books 📚 Weird stuff 😵 Articles 📝 Links 🔗
I mostly concern myself with Oriental numismatic affairs.

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To import at a later date (Post-Retirement List 📃)
Concept to work on when I have time.

The Signpost: 19 October 2024

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Read this Signpost in full · Single-page · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 11:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Tonkin and Annam in 1937 map request concept page

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In the page, I saw you found "1931: it consisted of 5 provinces: Buôn Ma Thuột, Buôn Hồ, Đắk Song, Lak, M'Đrăk", but in Vietnamese Wikipedia I saw it's actually "1931: it consisted of 5 districts: Buôn Ma Thuột, Buôn Hồ, Đắk Song, Lak, M'Đrăk". I also comment that Hà Nam was a province of French Indochina in 1937 but I don't see it on the map. I know that page is old (from the latest edit) and the subject is unpopular for people to talk about but this is just a recommend for you about that. Have a nice day! Quangkhanhhuynh (talk) 12:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was actually a map created out of that concept page, please see: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nguy%E1%BB%85n_Dynasty,_administrative_divisions_map_(1937).svg
I can start another request at the map workshop to add these improvements, I had based the provincial borders off of an existing map of the provinces of French Indo-China that was probably wrong. -- Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 12:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Đến tháng 10 năm 1890, phủ Lý Nhân được đổi tên thành tỉnh Hà Nam. Ngày 20 tháng 10 năm 1908, Toàn quyền Đông Dương ra nghị định đem toàn bộ phủ Liêm Bình và 17 xã của huyện Vụ Bản và Thượng Nguyên (phần nam Mỹ Lộc) của tỉnh Nam Định, cùng với 2 tổng Mộc Hoàn, Chuyên nghiệp của huyện Phú Xuyên (Hà Nội), nhập vào huyện Duy Tiên lập thành tỉnh Hà Nam. Tháng 4 năm 1965, Hà Nam được sáp nhập với tỉnh Nam Định thành tỉnh Nam Hà. Tháng 12 năm 1971, Nam Hà sáp nhập với Ninh Bình thành tỉnh Hà Nam Ninh, năm 1991, tỉnh Nam Hà và tỉnh Ninh Bình lại chia tách như cũ. Ngày 1 tháng 1 năm 1997, tỉnh Hà Nam được tái lập." - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. I can't believe that I completely missed this province. I should probably start another request to have it improved. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 12:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had mostly based my request based on the file "File:French Indochina 1937.png", do you by any chance know if Tây Nguyên was a part of a province or a special region? Do you have any better maps I can use in the request for corrections? --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 12:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that Tây Nguyên was a group of provinces in Annam (some provinces was belong to Cambodia and Laos until 1908), and from 1946 it was an autonomous region (en:Montagnard country of South Indochina). For better map, I found this (the source of the file, but includes Phúc Yên and Hà Nam). Quangkhanhhuynh (talk) 14:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for sharing that map, I'll file another request to correct the map. Also, I am very much aware of the autonomous region as I'm the one who wrote the English-language Wikipedia article about the "Montagnard country of South Indochina". 😜 After doing more research, I see that I had mistakenly assigned the entirety of the Đồng Nai Thượng Province (省同狔上) to Đà Lạt based on the erroneous map I had used as a point of reference. Thank you for informing me of the mistakes I made. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly enough, Đà Lạt was supposed to be both the capital city of the Nguyễn Dynasty and French Indo-China, but these plans were interrupted by World War II (two). Funnily enough, the French kept trying to make Đà Lạt the new national capital city after the war, but this was rejected by all Vietnamese governments who wanted the capital to be in either Hanoi or Saigon-Cholon. -- Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 21:19, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But why the map shows that provinces of Annam protectorate are named by their administrative centre? Aren't they supposed to have their owns? Quangkhanhhuynh (talk) 05:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In French Indo-China, only French Cochinchina and Guangzhouwan were directly ruled colonies, meaning that in Cambodia, Annam, and Tonkin the indigenous governments still had a parallel administration which was semi-independent. Laos is a more complicated situation as the Kingdom of Luang Prabang had strictly defined lines and Laos was a "protectorate" in name only with some regions in Laos being a real protectorate and other regions being a directly ruled colony more comparable to Cochinchina than to the protectorates.
The 1884 treaty (https://vi.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Bi%C3%AAn_d%E1%BB%8Bch:H%C3%B2a_%C6%B0%E1%BB%9Bc_Gi%C3%A1p_Th%C3%A2n) basically stipulates that the Nguyễn Dynasty administration maintains high levels of autonomy within the French administration and typically a Nguyễn Dynasty Mandarin maintained his own provincial administration in Annam and Tonkin while being overseen by a local French resident. An exception to this are actually a number of provinces where the French maintained military rule such as Hai-Ninh, Hung-Hoa, and most of Highlands of Southern Indo-China. In Ha-Giang the local Chinese warlord (well, weedlord as he gained power through his monopoly on marijuana) was the highest power for day-to-day administration, but this hereditary lord also maintained titles and tax obligations both to the Nguyễn Dynasty and the French.
So, there was a French "Province of Tourane" parallel to the Nguyễn Dynasty "Province of Quang-Nam" with two (2) largely overlapping administrations. Since 1898 there was a singular budget and under the Thành Thái Emperor 2 (two) new decrees were issued that basically gave the French full control over Annam and Tonkin making the Nguyễn Dynasty administration subordinate to the French, but the taxes that the Southern Dynasty collected were still typically allocated to its budget and not the French protectorate treasuries.
Interestingly enough, after losing the wars to the French the Nguyễn Dynasty owed the French a very large debt starting in 1867 and being expanded in 1883, the 1883 Hòa ước Harmand (Hác-măng) was actually supposed to wave all debts of the Nguyễn Dynasty state in exchange for giving the Binh-Thuan Province to the French, but the 1884 treaty stipulated that the Nguyễn would repay its debts otherwise. After 1918 the French state actually owed the Nguyễn Dynasty considerable amounts of money due to war loans and the Nguyễn was given more autonomy and French support to repay these debts. The parallel provincial administrations seemed to have largely been a power play based on which party had the stronger negotiating power. That is, autonomy existed at the local level but not the national level (the Nguyễn Dynasty court lost all of its powers but the provincial mandarins kept their authority). -- Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And from the map that I provided to you, I noticed that Đà Lạt appeared as a provincial administration of Annam. Do you have any information about that? Quangkhanhhuynh (talk) 10:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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