File talk:Title 42 Expulsions.png

Sourcing... replacing with SVG file

Hello again, User:Superb Owl. I noticed this file description page doesn't have specific sourcing information. The Migration Policy Institute article that you cite at one point in Wikipedia, and the CBP page that it links, don't seem to have a clear listing of the data that would match up to the data in your chart. Can you point, very specifically, to where you obtained the data? I'm asking, because I would plan to supersede this PNG chart with an SVG (with gridlines and more specific time periods).

Also, be aware that Wikimedia prefers SVGs because the file sizes are almost smaller in byte count than corresponding PNGs/JPGs, and SVGs can be increased in size without pixellation/choppy edges. I started SVG using Inkscape (with YouTube tutorials :-), and developed my own spreadsheets for automatically converting data to SVG files. RCraig09 (talk) 16:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Happy to provide the data and curious to see what your chart looks like when done! Is there any Wikipedia documentation suggesting we use gridlines or is this simply your preference? Thanks for the tip on SVGs Superb Owl (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Superb Owl: I doubt there are specific Wmedia/Wpedia guidelines re gridlines, but Googling "graph or chart" and clicking on "images" tab shows gridlines are present in almost all search results. Offhand, I frankly can't remember any prior instances on Wikipedia without gridlines. I can imagine that in rudimentary charts for very young or very unsophisticated audiences, or for simplistic topics, gridlines might be omitted. However in an encyclopedia the intellectual level is higher, and (subtle) gridlines, or at least hashmarks on the side, confirm the topic's numerical aspects and convey a sense of precision. In parallel, I do try to skip non-essential grid mark labels to reduce visual clutter (see File:2020- Encounters at U.S. southwest border.svg). RCraig09 (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is the source - not sure where to put it on Wikimedia commons: https://borderoversight.org/2023/08/27/title-42-expulsions-and-regular-apprehensions-of-all-migrants-at-the-u-s-mexico-border/ Superb Owl (talk) 16:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I have seen lots of charts without gridlines. I think The Economist has the best infographics and charts and they take a very simple approach that rarely use gridlines. This style, a la Edward Tufte, is more the style I think that is appropriate on Wikipedia for many charts (depending on the context of course and whether the gridlines are actually discussed in the article). However, I am new to this and trying to get more information in case I am missing something Superb Owl (talk) 17:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

— In the /* Summary */ section of the file description page, the link to the data source (and any helpful info re how to find the specific information, such as page numbers and Figure numbers etc., should be provided in the "description=" field. Example of helpful comment: "Click on 'Data table'. You have inserted "data=https://borderoversight.org/2023/08/27/title-42-expulsions-and-regular-apprehensions-of-all-migrants-at-the-u-s-mexico-border/" which causes an error, because "data=" is not a recognized data field. Edit the /* Summary */ field and add the URL etc. to the "description=" field.

— Separately, "advocacy" organizations such as WOLA are considered by many editors to be unreliable sources. It's best to go to original sources, such as CBP or other "official" bodies. I'll hold off generating an SVG chart until the reliability issue is overcome.

— Hmmm... when Googling "chart or graph site:economist.com", ~all the charts have gridlines. RCraig09 (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you are right that gridlines (within moderation) are used more than I realized. I would be curious to see them on the data to compare and am guessing your version will be better. Curious to try out your tool too
Here is the underlying data for that source from CBP: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/title-8-and-title-42-statistics (should be in the right field) - will not update my data since I will probably delete this chart once yours is created. Superb Owl (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

is uploaded. It's about 3 KBytes in size. After using one of my spreadsheets to produce the basic SVG file, I removed superfluous vertical-axis labels, and manually added vertical lines and explanatory text, all using an ordinary text editor. I added the Title 42 numbers from the two CBP charts to arrive at the data I used.

I also mention that SVGs are directly translatable into foreign languages, either (a) within the same SVG file using a translation tool available through Wikimedia, or (b) by downloading and directly inserting/substituting the foreign-language text and then uploading here to a different SVG file.

My spreadsheets are not a snazzy drag-and-drop commercial produce—it's all text-based in a spreadsheet program—but they do produce lean SVG (read the file in a text editor to see). RCraig09 (talk) 22:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

We have different aesthetics as yours is still busier than I think is necessary but do not plan to object to it replacing mine. Always nice to see that the data looks identical. Will try to remember the SVG tips. Superb Owl (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I looked at some Economist charts and they rarely use vertical gridlines, use no more than 5 horizontal gridlines and the gridlines are thinner and have more opacity. The red color choice is also quite harsh on the bar chart. I know you haven't asked for feedback per se, but I might try and create another version that is cleaner to propose on talk pages of the articles Superb Owl (talk) 01:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

— I think that graphic preferences are far from the minds of most editors, and any discussions would be bogged down in endless subjective judgments. Looking at entries in Category:Bar charts and its subcategories, it's clear there is no standardization of styles.

— I appreciate the constructive feedback. In , I used vertical gridlines in a bar chart only because the time axis labels are so sparse and the 12-bar groups needed to be visually separated all the way up since it's the tops of the bars that are the point of the chart. Separately, I've recently taken to dashed horizontal lines as being less dominant than solid lines, and to prevent vertical and horizontal solid lines from being repetitive/uninteresting and looking like a giant hashtag. I chose the deep red as to stand out, given the seriousness of the subject; pastels convey a more trivial subject. RCraig09 (talk) 03:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your insights on how you have been going about it. If you want to replace the chart I've made (which I updated to add a couple horizontal lines) I would want to start a discussion in talk pages about what other editors prefer. I prefer blues because I think it fits better with Wikipedia's overall aesthetic and doesn't distract too much from the article itself (I think many charts/photos are already engaging enough just by their nature) Superb Owl (talk) 04:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course you're free to start any discussion. But blue-vs-red is a formal distinction re aesthetics that differs from substantive content. And any visual graphic might be said to visually "distract" from tiny abstract symbol strings (i.e., text): graphics are designed to enhance or crystallize textual content. I predict any discussion will devolve into a list of advantages and disadvantages of various chart elements, and I fear subjective formal preference might dominate over encyclopedic substance. I've never seen such a discussion in my 15 years here; maybe Commons:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop is a good place for it, though that's usually for "help me fix it" requests. RCraig09 (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Superb Owl: Category:Charts states that "This is a main category requiring frequent diffusion and maybe maintenance. As many pictures and media files as possible should be moved into appropriate subcategories." To be useful, more specific categories should be used, so that charts are more readily discoverable based on content or chart type. You can check out the categories of other charts for ideas; it's a little extra work, but it can avoid needless duplication and save everyone's time. RCraig09 (talk) 11:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for the heads-up - will look at those subcategories and make the changes Superb Owl (talk) 13:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)